Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, because I understand God has more than one attribute.
Do you (think it conflicts with love)?
Sorry, I don't understand how having more than one attribute leads you to conclude those passages don't contradict love? Could you explain how you understand those passages in a way that is not in contradiction with love?
As for whether or not I think they contradict love, it is completely dependent on what one thinks those passages mean.
NT, first off I want it to be abundantly clear that I place tremendous value in the Bible. But there are several things wrong with what you're saying here.
Where in the Bible does "Word of God" = Bible?? The Bible itself never limits "Word of God" only to written and canonized works.
Let's consider the context for the phrase "word of the LORD" in the following passages:
Genesis 15:4 "And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but he who comes from your own body shall be your heir." "
2 Samuel 24:11 "When David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet God, David's seer, saying,"
1 Kings 13:20 "And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came to the prophet who had brought him back."
1 Kings 12:22 "But the word of God came to Shemaiah, the man of God, saying,"
1 Kings 21:28 "Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite:"
1 Kings 17:2 "Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah:"
1 Kings 17:8 "And the word of the LORD came to him, saying,"
1 Kings 19:9 "Then he came to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the LORD came and said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" "
1 Chronicles 22:8 "But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'You have shed blood abundantly, and have made great wars; you shall not build an house to my name because you have shed much blood upon the earth in my sight."
1 Chronicles 17:3 "And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,"
Isaiah 38:4 "Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,"
Jeremiah 1:4 "The word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Jeremiah 1:11 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Jeremiah, what do you see?" And I said, "I see a branch of the almond tree." "
Jeremiah 1:13 "And the word of the LORD came to me the second time, saying, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see a boiling pot, and the face of it is toward the north.""
Jeremiah 24:4 "Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Jeremiah 33:19 "And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,"
Jeremiah 33:23 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,"
Jeremiah 34:12 "Therefore the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,"
Ezekiel 3:16 "And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 11:14 "Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 12:1 "And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:"
Ezekiel 14:12 "the word of the LORD came again to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 15:1 "And the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 17:11 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 20:45 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 28:11 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Ezekiel 31:1 "And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"
Haggai 1:1 "In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah"
Haggai 2:20 "And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai in the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying:"
Zechariah 1:7 "Upon the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD to Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet,"
Zechariah 4:8 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying:"
Zechariah 7:8 "Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying:"
Jonah 1:1 "Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,"
Luke 3:2 "Annas and Caiaphas were the high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness."
Colossians 1:25 "I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness-"\
Philippians 1:14 "and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear."
The typical Sola Scriptura Protestant always always always likes to make "word of the LORD" or "word of God" = The Bible. In all of the cases above (and dozens more I didn't bother listing) here is what is not happening: We are not seeing the paper and ink Bible (which didn't even exist yet) walking into the room and talking to the prophet or apostle in question. So what do Biblical writers mean when they say "word of the Lord" and "word of God"?? In every single case listed above, "word of the Lord" introduces new direct revelation from God. In fact, this is the context of virtually every reference to "word of the Lord." Calling Christ "The Word" makes sense in this context because he is the one delivering the revelation.
Is there any justifiable reason to read "word of the Lord" as anything but direct revelation from God? How did this incredibly persistent tradition of insisting that it references the Bible and only the Bible get started? Yes the Bible does contain God's word because it contains the revealed will of God to man in ancient times. It is immensely valuable for that reason. But the Bible clearly intends "word of the Lord" to mean immediate and direct revelation and only very rarely does it reference the word of the Lord that has already been written down.
It doesn't hurt to focus on the revelations God revealed to ancient people. There is immense power in the Bible because it records direct revelation from God. But it is only truly valuable insofar as we utilize it in order to receive "the word of God" or direct revelation from God for ourselves. How can we really come to know God if we are not receiving direct communication/revelation from Him?
This is an excellent insight - I agree that the Word of God is not a book! But how does one receive this direct revelation from God? Most of us are not having visions a la Ezekiel.
Sorry, I don't understand how having more than one attribute leads you to conclude those passages don't contradict love? Could you explain how you understand those passages in a way that is not in contradiction with love?
As for whether or not I think they contradict love, it is completely dependent on what one thinks those passages mean.
Yes, those passages refer to impending judgment.
See Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
If you have to use the word "but" after love, then you are saying the passages do contradict love. You are saying God's attributes are in contradiction to each other. God is at war with Godself if that is true.
Quote:
Now answer my question. What do you think those passages mean?
May I ask you what difference what I think those passages mean makes? I'm just curious why you are interested in what I think they mean when I'm not all that interested, myself, at the moment.
If you have to use the word "but" after love, then you are saying the passages do contradict love. You are saying God's attributes are in contradiction to each other. God is at war with Godself if that is true.
May I ask you what difference what I think those passages mean makes? I'm just curious why you are interested in what I think they mean when I'm not all that interested, myself, at the moment.
Judgment does not negate love.
Nice dodge. Try this. Do you believe Jesus really said those things? If so, what did he mean?
Raising people to eternal contempt and shame most certainly does negate the biblical definition of love. 1 Cor 13.
Quote:
Nice dodge. Try this. Do you believe Jesus really said those things? If so, what did he mean?
Dodge? What am I dodging? I don't really care what those passages mean. If I were in the mood to look at them closely and they seemed to contradict love, I would dismiss either my understanding or the passages themselves as untrue.
But why does my understanding matter to you? You are the one who believes that these passages cannot contradict anything else in the bible because you believe every word in the bible is true. So, isn't it only important to you to make sure there is no contradiction in what YOU believe those passages mean with the biblical statement that God is love?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
