Once Saved Always saved, Is this a hyper grace doctrine? (crucifixion, women)
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As I pointed out in post #2, Acts 10:44-48 tells us that the Gentile audience which was listening to Peter was saved even while Peter was still speaking. The only obedience on their part was to believe the gospel (Acts 16:30-31). They were saved even before they underwent the ritual of water baptism. They received the Holy Spirit even while Peter was still speaking.
Eternal life is given at the moment of faith in Christ. Not at the end of a lifetime of obedience.
Titus 3:5He saved (Aorist Indicative)us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
'He saved' is in the aorist tense in the indicative mood which denotes action which took place in past time. Eternal life is given whenever a person simply places his faith in Christ. It is not a result of obedience throughout one's lifetime.
Do you understand that Scripture says that eternal life is a free gift?
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
A gift is something that is given by one person to another person without any obligation on the part of the one receiving the gift.
Salvation by obedience is a false gospel which is simply salvation by works because it makes something that you do, it makes your efforts at obedience a requirement in order to earn eternal life. It is in polar opposition to grace. And eternal salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Making obedience a requirement for eternal life is in direct opposition to grace.
No one is suggesting or promoting not being obedient. But obedience is not a condition for eternal salvation.
Mike -
How do you explain away the words about Jesus in Heb. 5:[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
I posted an item earlier this morning which I would like to post again in a new thread:
This message is for Mike555 and others who have the opinion that we do not have to obey Jesus to be saved, that if a person believes is Jesus as His Savior he or she has eternal security and will go to heaven when they die.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments. Jesus said at least twice in John ch. 14 that if you love him you will keep His commandments. If we do not love Him and keep His commandments how can we enter ino eternal life?
And in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
See also Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus said that he would not lose any of the sheep that God gave him. Do you believe he is a liar?
How do you explain away the words about Jesus in Heb. 5:[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Notice it doesn't say they obey him so that he becomes the author of salvation?
Those that believe....obey. It's a simple correlation..but obedience does not cause salvation.
How do you explain away the words about Jesus in Heb. 5:[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Most people holding Mike's position would say that the "obedience" is in believing in Jesus. Easy believeism is, as I pointed out on another thread, a very modern idea like fundamentalism and was popularized by Billy Graham and his predecessor (someone named Hamm as I recall).
Historically faith without works is a bust. James, the brother of Jesus did not hold with it, and Martin Luther, in his introduction to Paul's letter to the Romans wrote (and I'm trying to quote from memory here), "One can no more separate works from faith than he can separate heat and light from fire."
If you do not have heat and light, you do not have a fire. So it is with works and faith.
Faith only folks tend to be concerned about where they will spend the afterlife. Folks who believe faith is displayed by works tend to be concerned with being a servant of Christ in the here and now, leaving God to take care of the "where we are by and by."
But a similar thread by Mike555 ran for hundreds of posts until he asked for it to be closed.
I know that we are saved, as Paul wrote, "to do good works that God planned for us." And if there are no good works forthcoming, it would appear God had no plan for that person. Or if they fell away after a time, it would be like the seed that fell on rocky ground, having no root, therefore springing up and dying. Or the seed that sprang up and the cares of the world choked it off so that it had to be cut down and cast into the fire.
I'm going to bow out of this already fought war, but keep quoting the parables of Jesus, Robert. The only real response easy believers can reply with are the words of Paul. And, after all, Paul was a man just like you and me.
This thread seems to be leaning toward a subtle "everyone will ultimately be saved" position, which I really don't want to wade into here. But, with regard to Judas, I see no indication in scripture that he ever fully trusted in Christ and was not, as Jesus stated, "better off if he had never been born." There was an explicit point in the upper room when Judas made the full and cognizant decision to betray Christ .... "Satan entered him".
Judas didn't repent; he was sorry that he had betrayed Christ. When Peter denied Christ, he was greatly grieved in his Spirit and repented --- returning to Christ after the resurrection. (I'm persuaded that Peter denied Christ, because of his flesh-based efforts to resist the flesh in the flesh, and not deny Christ). Ultimately, Judas killed himself, rather than admit his betrayal and return to Christ. There's a big difference between the two. I believe the scriptural illustration of the two in such close proximity, is there to help us understand the difference between true repentance and 'being sorry one was wrong or got caught'
As I pointed out in post #2, Acts 10:44-48 tells us that the Gentile audience which was listening to Peter was saved even while Peter was still speaking. The only obedience on their part was to believe the gospel (Acts 16:30-31). They were saved even before they underwent the ritual of water baptism. They received the Holy Spirit even while Peter was still speaking.
Eternal life is given at the moment of faith in Christ. Not at the end of a lifetime of obedience.
Titus 3:5He saved (Aorist Indicative)us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
'He saved' is in the aorist tense in the indicative mood which denotes action which took place in past time. Eternal life is given whenever a person simply places his faith in Christ. It is not a result of obedience throughout one's lifetime.
Do you understand that Scripture says that eternal life is a free gift?
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
A gift is something that is given by one person to another person without any obligation on the part of the one receiving the gift.
Salvation by obedience is a false gospel which is simply salvation by works because it makes something that you do, it makes your efforts at obedience a requirement in order to earn eternal life. It is in polar opposition to grace. And eternal salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Making obedience a requirement for eternal life is in direct opposition to grace.
No one is suggesting or promoting not being obedient. But obedience is not a condition for eternal salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince
Mike -
How do you explain away the words about Jesus in Heb. 5:[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
First, I don't explain 'away' anything. To 'explain away' refers to offering excuses or dismissing something as unimportant.
***Now I will ask you a question. Why are you asking me to explain Hebrews 5:9 when I already explained it in post #2 of this very thread?
It doesn't appear that you are even reading the content of my posts. You ignore every passage I have referred to on this and other threads concerning the fact that eternal life is offered as a FREE GIFT by grace through faith. You ignore the fact that if salvation from the penalty of sin was dependent upon ongoing obedience that this would be in opposition to grace and the freeness of the gift.
You also ignore the fact that if eternal salvation from the penalty of sin (eternal condemnation) was dependent upon our ongoing obedience then our obedience would have to be perfect obedience. The point of the Mosaic Law which was given to Israel under the Mosaic Covenent was to show that no one can be saved by obedience to the law. The Mosaic Law pointed the way to Christ who did everything necessary for our eternal salvation. Therefore, we take possession of the free gift of eternal life by grace through faith or trust in the finished redemptive work of Christ on the cross.
As Paul shows in the following passage, we are justified with regard to the issue of eternal salvation not by obedience to the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22] even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24]being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27] Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
We are not eternally saved from the penalty of sin, we are not justified by our obedience (other than by obeying the command to believe in Christ - Acts 16:30-31), but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. And having been saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus we cannot lose our eternal salvation.
Salvation by obedience is a false gospel which is simply salvation by works because it makes something that you do, it makes your efforts at obedience a requirement in order to earn eternal life. It is in polar opposition to grace. And eternal salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Making obedience a requirement for eternal life is in direct opposition to grace.
No one is suggesting or promoting not being obedient. But obedience is not a condition for eternal salvation.
And that belief is extremely dangerous, because it allows people to act as horribly as they want -- since they believe they have a "Get Out of Jail Free" card no matter what they do. It's also why, according to Christian belief, Gandhi is in hell, while a mass murderer could accept Jesus 30 seconds before he dies and would go to heaven. That is abhorrent to any human being with a sense of decency and justice.
There's a reason James said faith without works is dead. If you're going to be a follower of Christ, then you need to walk the talk. To paraphrase Teresa of Avila, we are the only body Christ has in the world today. We have an obligation to act like it.
This thread seems to be leaning toward a subtle "everyone will ultimately be saved" position, which I really don't want to wade into here. But, with regard to Judas, I see no indication in scripture that he ever fully trusted in Christ and was not, as Jesus stated, "better off if he had never been born." There was an explicit point in the upper room when Judas made the full and cognizant decision to betray Christ .... "Satan entered him".
Judas didn't repent; he was sorry that he had betrayed Christ. When Peter denied Christ, he was greatly grieved in his Spirit and repented --- returning to Christ after the resurrection. (I'm persuaded that Peter denied Christ, because of his flesh-based efforts to resist the flesh in the flesh, and not deny Christ). Ultimately, Judas killed himself, rather than admit his betrayal and return to Christ. There's a big difference between the two. I believe the scriptural illustration of the two in such close proximity, is there to help us understand the difference between true repentance and 'being sorry one was wrong or got caught'
IMO, Judas 'was as lost as an old Easter egg' --
I certainly hope that you aren't getting that impression from me John, for as you well know, I am not a Universalist.
And that belief is extremely dangerous, because it allows people to act as horribly as they want -- since they believe they have a "Get Out of Jail Free" card no matter what they do. It's also why, according to Christian belief, Gandhi is in hell, while a mass murderer could accept Jesus 30 seconds before he dies and would go to heaven. That is abhorrent to any human being with a sense of decency and justice.
There's a reason James said faith without works is dead. If you're going to be a follower of Christ, then you need to walk the talk. To paraphrase Teresa of Avila, we are the only body Christ has in the world today. We have an obligation to act like it.
No, the eternal security of the believer is not a dangerous belief. It is a Biblically revealed fact. The believer does not have a license to sin because willful sin results in divine discipline in time and loss of eternal rewards. But not a loss of eternal salvation.
And James was not even referring to the issue of eternal salvation. He was referring to the believer (who is eternally saved) having a productive spiritual life with spiritual dynamics as opposed to being non-productive in his spiritual life in time.
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