Once Saved Always saved, Is this a hyper grace doctrine? (paradise, believer)
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First, I don't explain 'away' anything. To 'explain away' refers to offering excuses or dismissing something as unimportant.
***Now I will ask you a question. Why are you asking me to explain Hebrews 5:9 when I already explained it in post #2 of this very thread?
It doesn't appear that you are even reading the content of my posts. You ignore every passage I have referred to on this and other threads concerning the fact that eternal life is offered as a FREE GIFT by grace through faith. You ignore the fact that if salvation from the penalty of sin was dependent upon ongoing obedience that this would be in opposition to grace and the freeness of the gift.
You also ignore the fact that if eternal salvation from the penalty of sin (eternal condemnation) was dependent upon our ongoing obedience then our obedience would have to be perfect obedience. The point of the Mosaic Law which was given to Israel under the Mosaic Covenent was to show that no one can be saved by obedience to the law. The Mosaic Law pointed the way to Christ who did everything necessary for our eternal salvation. Therefore, we take possession of the free gift of eternal life by grace through faith or trust in the finished redemptive work of Christ on the cross.
As Paul shows in the following passage, we are justified with regard to the issue of eternal salvation not by obedience to the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21] But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22] even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24]being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27] Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
We are not eternally saved from the penalty of sin, we are not justified by our obedience (other than by obeying the command to believe in Christ - Acts 16:30-31), but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. And having been saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus we cannot lose our eternal salvation.
I re-read your post about He.5:9 and you explained away the exact words about Jesus being the author of salvation to those who obey Him. Many "Christians' claim to believe on Christ, but if their faith is not accompanied by obedience, the faith is not genuine. Jesus says in at least two places in John 14 that If we love Him we will keep His commandments If their faith is not accompanied by obedience, it is not true faith. Many claim to believe on Him but never show a commitment to OBEY HIM. We must have the Holy Spirit and the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives the Holy Ghost to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.
Faith without obedience is dead faith. True obedience is a gift of God which is accompanied by the Holy Spirit working in and through us as new creatures in Christ, and we have no works of our own of which we can boast. Can you say that a carnal Christian who remains carnal and does not grow in the Spirit is really a genuine Christian. I am convinced that man of the "Christians" which you call carnal have NEVER had the Holy Spirit. If the truly repent then their fruits will be true works of the Spirit.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-04-2015 at 09:26 PM..
I re-read your post about He.5:9 and you explained away the exact words about Jesus being the author of salvation to those who obey Him. Many "Christians' claim to believe on Christ, but if their faith is not accompanied by obedience, the faith is not genuine. Jesus says in at least two places in John 14 that If we love Him we will keep His commandments If their faith is not accompanied by obedience, it is not true faith. Many claim to believe on Him but never show a commitment to OBEY HIM. We must have the Holy Spirit and the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives the Holy Ghost to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.
Faith without obedience is dead faith. True obedience is a gift of God which is accompanied by the Holy Spirit working in and through us as new creatures in Christ, and we have no works of our own of which we can boast. Can you say that a carnal Christian who remains carnal and does not grow in the Spirit is really a genuine Christian. I am convinced that man of the "Christians" which you call carnal have NEVER had the Holy Spirit. If the truly repent then their fruits will be true works of the Spirit.
Again, you accuse me of attempting to explain 'away' what Jesus said. Typical of the legalist you presume to know whether a person's faith is genuine. You confuse being a believer with loving God. But it is possible to be a believer and yet live a continual life of carnality. Obedience is not a gift. Obedience is a volitional decision on the part of the believer. I not only can say that a persistently carnal believer is a true Christian, I have stated as much. Being a believer and being a disciple are not the same thing.
You keep pointing out that the disciples said that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him, and I keep pointing out to you that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentile believers who didn't do a thing other than believe the gospel message which Peter was speaking to them (Acts chapter 10). Their only obedience was to obey the command to believe in Christ. You keep ignoring that fact. You also ignore the fact that Jesus told the Samaritan woman (John 4:10) that 'living water' was the gift of God. John 7:37-39 states that 'living water' is a reference to the Holy Spirit. The giving of the Holy Spirit is free and based upon believing in Christ. Not on acts of continued obedience. The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration. Revelation 22:17 tells us that the water of life is without cost.
The only obedience involved in receiving the Holy Spirit is the obedience to the command to believe in Christ as per Acts 16:30-31.
You've been showed over and over that salvation is by grace through faith. Not by works, not by obedience, and not by anything else added to simple faith alone in Christ alone. The claim that if you are a believer you will automatically have good works, or that you will be obedient is simply a backdoor approach to salvation by works which is the antithesis of grace.
The perpetually disobedient believer will undergo divine discipline in time and may be taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline. He can lose eternal rewards. He cannot lose his eternal salvation.
I posted an item earlier this morning which I would like to post again in a new thread:
This message is for Mike555 and others who have the opinion that we do not have to obey Jesus to be saved, that if a person believes is Jesus as His Savior he or she has eternal security and will go to heaven when they die.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments. Jesus said at least twice in John ch. 14 that if you love him you will keep His commandments. If we do not love Him and keep His commandments how can we enter ino eternal life?
And in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
See also Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
I would say that this kind of behavior what you describe is the behavior of the fallen church of to day, which do not anymore teach the real doctrines of The Lord.
6. he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked (1 John 2:6)
It is obvious, that to day's known christianity do not walk, as our Lord walked.
Again, you accuse me of attempting to explain 'away' what Jesus said. Typical of the legalist you presume to know whether a person's faith is genuine. You confuse being a believer with loving God. But it is possible to be a believer and yet live a continual life of carnality. Obedience is not a gift. Obedience is a volitional decision on the part of the believer. I not only can say that a persistently carnal believer is a true Christian, I have stated as much. Being a believer and being a disciple are not the same thing.
You keep pointing out that the disciples said that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him, and I keep pointing out to you that the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentile believers who didn't do a thing other than believe the gospel message which Peter was speaking to them (Acts chapter 10). Their only obedience was to obey the command to believe in Christ. You keep ignoring that fact. You also ignore the fact that Jesus told the Samaritan woman (John 4:10) that 'living water' was the gift of God. John 7:37-39 states that 'living water' is a reference to the Holy Spirit. The giving of the Holy Spirit is free and based upon believing in Christ. Not on acts of continued obedience. The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration. Revelation 22:17 tells us that the water of life is without cost.
The only obedience involved in receiving the Holy Spirit is the obedience to the command to believe in Christ as per Acts 16:30-31.
You've been showed over and over that salvation is by grace through faith. Not by works, not by obedience, and not by anything else added to simple faith alone in Christ alone. The claim that if you are a believer you will automatically have good works, or that you will be obedient is simply a backdoor approach to salvation by works which is the antithesis of grace.
The perpetually disobedient believer will undergo divine discipline in time and may be taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline. He can lose eternal rewards. He cannot lose his eternal salvation.
Mike -
I disagree completely when you say that it is possible to be a believer and yet live a life of constant carnality.
Look at Romans 8:[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Also rom. 6:[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
In my opinion, anyone who claims to be a believer and continues to live a carnal life is not a true believer. I believe that all who continue in carnality are making a mockery of faith. Jesus said in the great commission: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. [Matt.28:20.] If we do not manifest the fruits of the Spirit, we are none of His.
You can interpret the Bible any way you want, but I believe that we must live an obedient life - and our eternal salvation is at stake.
Paul said in Rom.7:[6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[
A person who lives in constant carnality shows that he has not become a new creature in Christ, and are not serving in newness of Spirit. I believe our Lord is the author of eternal Salvation to those who not a servant of sin unto death, but a servant of obedience unto righteousness. [Rom. ch.6]
I know that our eternal destiny is between each individual and his maker, but I would not want to presume on the mercy of God
I know that I cannot judge the state of anyone's mind but I believe anything short of growing in righteousness is falling short of the mark. Jesus said in Matt. 5:3.[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.See Luke 14:[33] So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-05-2015 at 08:33 AM..
Yes, a person is saved when he accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Now being our Lord, which means master, we are also expected to obey him and his father's will, which includes the works of obedience and salvation. You take ALL the verses that apply to get the correct picture not just the oens that favor a point of view. being saved by grac and faith without works, do not contradict, they give the fuller meaning of what real faith involves.
Do you believe that we lose our salvation by not obeying? How does that work? What level of obedience is required?
Do you believe that we lose our salvation by not obeying? How does that work? What level of obedience is required?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
For the 645th time, commitment
I'm glad you're keeping count, Nate. I stopped counting a long time ago.
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