Once Saved Always saved, Is this a hyper grace doctrine? (church, Revelation)
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It's been done, but good luck. I* believe that the point is to take some verses that tell an important part of what is needed and denigrate the ones that tell "the rest of the story."
Yes, a person is saved when he accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Now being our Lord, which means master, we are also expected to obey him and his father's will, which includes the works of obedience and salvation. You take ALL the verses that apply to get the correct picture not just the oens that favor a point of view. being saved by grac and faith without works, do not contradict, they give the fuller meaning of what real faith involves.
Robert, I'm not a believer in their doctrine but I think I've come to terms with it by better understanding it.
The "Born Again Christian" doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is not a "no works nor obedience necessary" belief. Your average born again Christian would disagree by knee-jerk reflex because the word "works" seriously bugs them. But the reality is, they most definitely believe in the role of good works.
It's like asking whether the chicken or the egg came first. Christians who do not believe in their doctrine (which constitutes the huge majority of Christianity) will tell you that works must come before salvation can be possible. For them, the works came first. But for born again Christians, salvation comes first and then they show forth works. If a bad person is "saved" and you see no subsequent change in their behavior at all, then that person clearly must have faked it. There are several scriptures they'll reference which say exactly that. If a man or woman really and truly has been "saved" then they are a new creature and will no longer act in the same sinful ways they used to. So for them, salvation comes first, then works will follow.
Either way, we all believe in Christ and depend on Him for salvation. We also all believe in works. Hope that helps.
The "works" are not just changing from a bad course but becoming obedient in many areas, not just good works.
The words of Paul are appropriate to this thread. See Rom. 6:[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If we are servants of righteousness, and hold out until death, we can enter into eternal life. We must be possessors of the Holy Ghost, which the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives to those who OBEY HIM.
Yes, the works Paul was speaking of here are not works of Law which we are not under, the old law,but the new works of believers. No new works then no faith and no salvation.
Most people holding Mike's position would say that the "obedience" is in believing in Jesus. Easy believeism is, as I pointed out on another thread, a very modern idea like fundamentalism and was popularized by Billy Graham and his predecessor (someone named Hamm as I recall).
Historically faith without works is a bust. James, the brother of Jesus did not hold with it, and Martin Luther, in his introduction to Paul's letter to the Romans wrote (and I'm trying to quote from memory here), "One can no more separate works from faith than he can separate heat and light from fire."
If you do not have heat and light, you do not have a fire. So it is with works and faith.
Faith only folks tend to be concerned about where they will spend the afterlife. Folks who believe faith is displayed by works tend to be concerned with being a servant of Christ in the here and now, leaving God to take care of the "where we are by and by."
But a similar thread by Mike555 ran for hundreds of posts until he asked for it to be closed.
I know that we are saved, as Paul wrote, "to do good works that God planned for us." And if there are no good works forthcoming, it would appear God had no plan for that person. Or if they fell away after a time, it would be like the seed that fell on rocky ground, having no root, therefore springing up and dying. Or the seed that sprang up and the cares of the world choked it off so that it had to be cut down and cast into the fire.
I'm going to bow out of this already fought war, but keep quoting the parables of Jesus, Robert. The only real response easy believers can reply with are the words of Paul. And, after all, Paul was a man just like you and me.
Good luck.
Now what are the good works and how are they done?
We are strictly speaking salvation. The NT repeatedly mentions the Holy Spirit is the pledge of our inheritance (Eph.1:13-14; 1 Cor. 6:19; Rom. 8:16-17) - not works.
Now the judgment we get before entering into His presence - that will be based on works.
This leads me to wonder what you believe will be different with respect to the Christian who merely "believes" and the one whose works are evidence of his belief. If we are "judged" according to our works, but may be "saved" regardless of our works, what does the righteous, obedient Christian stand to gain in the next life by his good works.
Also, when it gets right down to it, for some "belief" might be considered a work in and of itself. Belief comes easily for some people but not for others. If "we are saved by grace" really means "nothing is required of us," then belief really isn't necessary any more than any other work. As soon as you say, "one must only believe," you are putting a condition upon the individual, and saying that unless he complies with this requirement, he can not be saved. Already, grace is requiring something of us.
And that belief is extremely dangerous, because it allows people to act as horribly as they want -- since they believe they have a "Get Out of Jail Free" card no matter what they do. It's also why, according to Christian belief, Gandhi is in hell, while a mass murderer could accept Jesus 30 seconds before he dies and would go to heaven. That is abhorrent to any human being with a sense of decency and justice.
There's a reason James said faith without works is dead. If you're going to be a follower of Christ, then you need to walk the talk. To paraphrase Teresa of Avila, we are the only body Christ has in the world today. We have an obligation to act like it.
To follow up on your thought:
George Sodini rests in heaven now because he professed a faith in Jesus years before his shooting rampage, a Tetelestai Christian Church leader said.
Jack Rickard, a deacon at the Plum church Sodini attended for years, said the Bible makes it clear that "professing a faith in Jesus as savior means you will have complete eternal salvation."
Rickard, 80, of Indiana, Pa., said Tetelestai members "are firm believers in 'once-saved, always-saved.'"
He said the church, which is in process of moving to New Kensington, focuses on the intense study of Scripture.
Rickard conveyed his belief that Sodini attained eternal life.
"George is going to heaven, but he's not going to get his rewards," Rickard said. He said that Sodini won't be offered all of heaven's benefits because of his sin.
"George is going to heaven, but he's not going to get his rewards," Rickard said. He said that Sodini won't be offered all of heaven's benefits because of his sin.
So what does this really mean? What are "all of heaven's benefits" that he won't be offered?
I mean it makes total sense to me that if we are to be rewarded according to our works, heaven will not be a one-size-fits-all kind of place. People talk of "all of heavens benefits" but most people can't even begin to imagine what this actually means.
So what does this really mean? What are "all of heaven's benefits" that he won't be offered?
I mean it makes total sense to me that if we are to be rewarded according to our works, heaven will not be a one-size-fits-all kind of place. People talk of "all of heavens benefits" but most people can't even begin to imagine what this actually means.
The above "heaven's benefits" is a fundamentalist idea. Being an existentialist Christian I'm more about living in the now and leaving Heaven and hell for God. He's made it real clear about how we are to live with the example of Jesus. Spending time on rewards or lack of rewards is for those who are justifying avoiding the servanthood service Christ demands of us in the here and now.
For me grace without works is what theologian and pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." On the other hand there are many denominations and independent churches literally betting their souls on it. What could be easier than a one time profession of faith and then living the same way you always have?
The reason the world is falling further in disarray is not the lack of religious further. We have too much of that. It is for lack of crucifixions. Not too many Christians want to bear their own cross in following Jesus. It's to easy to punch your ticket on the ride to Heaven.
And NOW I am done with this recurring nightmare of a thread.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments.
I don't think there are many who take that particular position, saying "it is not necessary to keep His commandments". It is necessary to keep them, the point which you miss is that they do not believe you can earn your salvation by your works. The thief on the cross did not perform any works to earn his salvation, he was saved by his faith.
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