From a Mormon: What unique beliefs does the LDS Church have (Book of Mormon, women)
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You touched earlier on the idea of a human being progressing to becoming a god someday. Do you believe that the Father was once a created being on another planet and he became a god by obeying his god, thus achieving exaltation?
I once knew a Pentacostal minister who really took the time to learn about and understand Mormonism. I will paraphrase as best as I can:
Traditional Christianity claims that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all uncreated and eternal.
Mormonism adds every human being to that list. From their point of view, every human being ever born has always existed in some form or another and is an uncreated being.
So the answer to your question about whether Jesus or God the Father are created beings would have to be, "No they are not."
Another point that I found enlightening: He said that because Traditional Christianity accepts the Trinity as the correct description of God, it is impossible for God and humanity to be the same "species". But Mormonism doesn't accept the Trinity, which makes possible their belief that humankind and God are the same species.
As I've thought about it, this creates a very interesting dynamic. For a Trinitarian, God is not truly their Father. He is their creator. They are his much-loved pets. He even calls us His children to demonstrate how much He loves us and asks to be addressed as our Father in Heaven. But this statement must be taken metaphorically. We are not really his children. But the LDS view is that we are the same species -- the same type of being -- so the notion of progressing to become gods in our own right is perfectly logical. If you are literally a child of God, what else would you become? Consider that CS Lewis was by no means a Mormon, but he did refer to our state after receiving our final eternal reward as "gods." And many early Christian sects like the Gnostics did teach the concept that progressing to become like God was their ultimate end-goal eternally. So obviously, a lot of other Christians have come to the same conclusions, more or less.
To the traditional Christian, the claim that humans can become like God seems arrogant. To the Latter-Day Saint, the notion that we are just a bunch of much loved pet creations of God makes them less connected to God. The two viewpoints don't see eye to eye. Doesn't mean we can't all understand one another though.
I have family who are Mormons, so I am familiar with being married for all eternity. What happens though, if one of the spouses dies and the living spouse remarries another Mormon? With whom does that person live? Do they all live together?
What do you believe these additional books add? Is a Christian missing anything important if he/she does not use these 3?
I believe these additional books add quite a lot to our understanding of God's Plan of Salvation. To me, the more knowledge we have about these things, the better we are able to understand this mortal experience. For instance, most Christians believe that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for rebellion against God and for trying to exalt himself over God. Our unique scriptures and modern revelation explains in greater detail the circumstances surrounding this rebellion. We are given to know that the "host of Heaven" that is spoken of in Revelation was the spirits of all of God's children who chose to side with either Jesus Christ or with Lucifer. We know what the "War" was fought over and because we believe that every single solitary person who has ever lived chose to follow Jesus Christ in that pre-mortal event, it gives us a greater respect for people everywhere. Whether they follow Jesus Christ today or not, we believe that they once made the choice that would result in their being sent to Earth and living a mortal life. They were not part of the one-third of the host of Heaven who fought with Lucifer and were subsequently expelled from God's presence forever. To know that God gave us a choice and that His Plan was established 100% for our benefit is, to me at least, a very great source of comfort. I like believing that He didn't just create us for either His amusement or so that He would have someone to worship Him. Yes, we do worship Him, with all our minds and hearts, but we know that He created us with our eternal happiness in mind.
Of course there are other teachings, too, that I believe are important for us to know. In the Pearl of Great Price, we are given a more detailed account of the events which took place in the Garden of Eden. That information helps us better understand the position Adam and Eve were placed in and why their decision to eat the forbidden fruit was ultimately for the good of all of us. This additional knowledge helps us understand the problem of good and evil in the world, and helps us understand why a loving Father would allow bad things to happen to good people. I could actually go on and on with more examples. Hopefully, these two will be sufficient as an answer to your question.
I think a Christian is missing something without these truths. I'm not saying it's impossible to live a good life without this information, but we put a great deal of emphasis on learning and believe God wants us to have as complete a knowledge as we are capable of benefitting from.
So you believe there was an apostasy. So are there any legitimate churches today that are not in line with the LDS church? If so...why did God have to reestablish it?
We believe that Jesus Christ established one Church and only one. It was His desire that we all be united in our knowledge and love for the things of God.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often speak of a "Great Apostasy." What do they mean by this?
Even in Old Testament times, God's prophets warned that the time would come when the word of the Lord would not be found anywhere in the world.
In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Contrary to most other Christian denominations, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints contends that this prophesy did, in fact, come to pass, and that shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, the Church He personally established ceased to exist in its original form -- in other words that there was, for many, many years, a famine in the world "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" and that, regardless of where one might wander in search of God's word, it could not be found.
Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…
Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds that during the first few centuries after the Savior and His Apostles died, Christianity began to evolve into something quite different than it had originally been. While the Apostles, who assumed leadership over the Church after Christ's death, undoubtedly did everything within their power to preserve and strengthen the Church, there were, unfortunately, other forces at work. Within a matter of just a few years following their deaths, the simplicity and purity of Christ’s teachings had begun to undergo some rather significant changes. Greek philosophical thought corrupted such basic doctrines as the true nature of God and man’s relationship to Him, as learned but uninspired men sought to make this new religion more acceptable to the masses, and especially to the non-Jewish convert. Finally, and probably most important of all, God withdrew His priesthood from the earth. What did this mean? It meant that there was no one left who held the authority to act in His name. With God no longer directing the affairs of His Church, man was on his own. Through debate and discussion, by vote and by compromise, what we now know as “mainstream” Christianity emerged.
Religious scholars describe this as "The Hellenization of Christianity." We call it simply, "The Great Apostasy."
Does this mean that Christianity ceased to exist entirely? No. There have been devout Christians ever since the time of Christ. But the "fullness" of His gospel was taken from the earth, just as the ancient prophets said it would be. We believe that there is a great deal of good to be found in all of Christianity, but we believe the authority to preside over Christ's Church resides solely with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe that there was no way that Jesus Christ's Church could be re-established without the personal intervention of Jesus Christ Himself. We don't see a Reformation as being synonymous with a Restoration, and while we believe the great Protestant Reformation laid a foundation for a later Restoration of the Gospel through Joseph Smith, it (the Reformation) in and of itself was insufficient to re-establish Christ's Church. (Interestingly several of the Reformers actually made statements to that effect.)
How is God the "Father of our spirits"? Could you elaborate?
Two biblical passages are relevant to my answer:
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
We believe that, while we are God's creations, we are more than that. God created many living things besides mankind. We alone are not merely His creations, but His offspring. And yet, the Bible clearly states that Jesus Christ is His "Only Begotten Son." We believe that God the Father was the literal Father of Jesus Christ, just as Mary was His literal mother. Please don't read anything into this statement that's not there. We do not know how Jesus Christ was conceived. We know only that the scriptures tell us that Mary was a virgin when her Son was conceived and when she gave birth. We know that the power of the Holy Ghost "overshadowed" her and that her Son was the Son of the Highest. The bottom line here is that we see the relationship between the Father and the Son as being literal and real. We do not see it as being symbolic or metaphorical.
So, how are we God's offspring when Jesus was His "Only Begotten Son?" We are His spirit sons and daughters. We are the physical offspring of our own mortal parents, but God is the Father (or the Creator) of our spirits. We believe He created the spirits of each and every one of us and that, in a spiritual sense, He is our Father.
We believe that sincere repentance and an acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's Savior are the first two requirements. We believe, as I said before, that the human spirit continues after life to be self-aware and alive. Consequently, it has the ability to repent and to believe in Jesus Christ. There is another requirement, but this is something a spirit is incapable of doing. The body of the individual who is dead lies within the grave. That body had flesh and bones, but a spirit has no corporeal essence and is therefore unable to be immersed in water (i.e. baptized). Since we believe the scriptures teach that baptism is essential to salvation, this creates a dilemma. This dilemma is one we believe God resolved when He gave man the opportunity to be baptized by proxy for his deceased relatives. We believe that these "baptisms for the dead" are to be performed for the spirits of those of our family members who died without having this ordinance (i.e. sacrament) performed by one holding the proper authority to do so. We therefore do the necessary research to identify our ancestors and when we have done so, stand in proxy and are baptized in their name. If a person who has died has fulfilled the first two requirements (faith in the Lord and repentance for his sins), he must still accept the proxy baptism that was done on his behalf. If he accepts it, we believe that it is as if he had been baptized himself while on earth. The net result is exactly the same. If he rejects it, it is as if it had never been performed at all. The only thing that has happened is that we have wasted our time doing something for someone who didn't want it. No one can be converted against his will. That is the bottom line.
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If one is not baptized into the LDS church during his life, is there a way for him to accept this true Gospel after death?
There is. We believe that God wants more than everything for every single one of us to know and accept what we believe to be the true gospel of Jesus Christ. He is going to be as generous as possible in giving us the opportunity to hear, understand and accept the gospel. Mormons understand that there are millions of good people in the world for whom our religion just doesn't resonate as true. They sincerely want the truth but, for whatever reason, they can't accept what we teach. Each of us is the product of our own cultures and backgrounds, and no human being has the ability to know whether the Holy Ghost has truly touched someone's heart or not. That's why you'll never hear us say that anyone is condemned just because he doesn't become a Mormon. I would be the first to admit that I don't know whether I would have ever had the faith to convert to Mormonism had I been born into another Christian denomination. That said, we believe that our spirits are the essence of who we are and that a person's spirit remains essentially unchanged when it leaves the body at death. If a person is flat out stubborn and hostile to our message here on Earth, there is really no reason to assume that it will be otherwise when it hears the message repeated in the Spirit World where it awaits the resurrection. Spirits who are humble and teachable on earth will continue to be humble and teachable after death.
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Thank you for your response. I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
And thank you for making this conversation a civil one.
I think you hit on it when you said that they are physically distinct. Historical Christianity has taught something different.
Yes, it has. Then again, on another forum I post on regularly, a Catholic recently posted the following:
"From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune."
So, I'm kind of left to wonder how that ties in to my statement. At any rate, we believe that when Mary held her newborn baby in her arms, it was physically her Son, Jesus, she held. It was not physically His Father, as His Father was in Heaven. When Jesus hung dying on the cross, it was physically the Son who was paying the price for our sins. It was not physically the Father. So your assessment is essentially correct. Finally, we believe that when Stephen was given his vision of Heaven, he saw "the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God." In other words, He was able to distinguish between the Father and the Son by their relative positions.
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You touched earlier on the idea of a human being progressing to becoming a god someday. Do you believe that the Father was once a created being on another planet and he became a god by obeying his god, thus achieving exaltation?
We do have an official doctrine as to the potential God has given us to become like Him at some point in our eternal existence. We do not, on the other hand, have any official doctrine as to His beginnings. Some of our early leaders made statements along the lines that you have mentioned, but later leaders have stated that we have been given no word from God on the subject and that it is best not to speculate.
Traditional Christianity claims that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all uncreated and eternal.
Mormonism adds every human being to that list. From their point of view, every human being ever born has always existed in some form or another and is an uncreated being.
So the answer to your question about whether Jesus or God the Father are created beings would have to be, "No they are not."
I'd say that's a reasonably accurate statement, but I would also say that it would be even more accurate to point out that while "every human being ever born has always existed in some form or another an is an uncreated being," this could possibly be misleading. I would begin by saying that we do not believe in an ex nihilo creation and we don't believe the Bible teaches of an ex nihilo creation. We do see God as the Creator, but we believe that the materials with which He created our universe were co-eternal with Him. With respect to us human beings, we believe our spirits were created from a highly refined matter that the Pearl of Great Price calls "intelligences" and translates roughly as "the light of truth." This matter is said to be so highly refined that it is invisible to the naked eye, but it is matter nevertheless. So while the matter with which our spirits were created has always existed, God was 100% the force behind the molding of that matter into the spirits of each one of us. If it were not for God, this matter would have been forever useless and we would have been forever without the life that came into being with the creation of our spirits.
I have family who are Mormons, so I am familiar with being married for all eternity. What happens though, if one of the spouses dies and the living spouse remarries another Mormon? With whom does that person live? Do they all live together?
There are many Mormons who marry in the temple, uniting them with their spouse for "time and eternity." Typically, when one spouse dies, the other remarries, but in a civil ceremony. They are believed to be united to the spouse they were "sealed" in the temple to forever and just married to the second spouse "until death do you part." I can think of many, many examples of this type of a situation. As far as everybody living together, I don't really see it in quite that way. I don't live with my parents any more and my kids don't live with my husband and me. The relationships are what matter, and we believe them to be eternal.
Last edited by Katzpur; 03-18-2015 at 03:31 PM..
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