From a Mormon: What unique beliefs does the LDS Church have (celibacy, Jehovah's Witnesses)
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I just wanted to interject on this point. I've tried most of my life to make sense of the Trinity. A person might make a statement like you've made. Another person will tell me that they are three persons "cut from the same cloth." Some advocating for the Trinity see the three as functioning with a great deal of independence from one another. Some do not. The connection that makes them "one God" ranges from "one being" to "one substance." It's like trying to focus on a target that keeps moving around on you.
There are different ways to describe it, yes. I don't like the "cut from one cloth" analogy because with that description, the individuals are different pieces of the same cloth. The official doctrine is that each member of the Trinity is completely and wholly God. They are not independent from each other. Yes--they are distinct persons...but they are the same God.
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I know we've gone the rounds on this issue because I have ultimately rejected the Trinity. I certainly don't want to pick another fight on the matter. But I do want to point out that a great many of those who believe in the concept have an extremely difficult time making sense of it all. It bothered me for years. And in my experience, most who are not professional clergymen seldom bother to even try to understand the Trinity. Most have the same difficulty with the concept that I did. Many if not most couldn't care less about whether another Christian believes in the Trinity because they kinda don't buy it themselves. In their own minds, many more than you might expect have abandoned the complicated Trinity and just believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- casting any particulars beyond that by the wayside.
I have struggled with it, as well. I learned the official doctrine in seminary, and come to understand why Nicea officially recognized it. The Scriptures are clearly teaching all 3 are God....yet they teach that there is only one God. How is that possible? I honestly don't understand the inner workings of it all...but I do know what Scripture teaches. I choose to believe Scripture.
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As to whether the Trinity is "historical"? There is a great deal of evidence that it isn't the understanding of God believed in by the earliest Christians. A lot of historians will tell you that it was almost certainly made up later on in order to make the new Christian religion more palatable to hyper-monotheistic Jews, Greek philosophers and to be all things to everyone. If somebody asks, "Is there three?" the answer is "Yes!" If another person asks, "Is there only one" the answer is still a resounding "Yes!" If a person asks, "Is God a spirit?" the answer is "Yes!" If a person asks whether God has a physical body, the answer is still "Yes!" As I said, all things to everyone. I know that doesn't disprove the Trinity, but it offers a great deal of credibility to those who reject it.
I guess the point I'm really getting at here is that Mormonism is not a single isolated voice of Trinity-doubters. That and it is hardly certain that Jesus and the apostles ever actually taught the Trinity as you understand it.
I'm only asking that you look at the clear teachings of Scripture. We can argue about what Jesus and the apostles did and did not teach...and that's fine. But again..I can quote you specific verses where the apostles clearly DID teach that all 3 members are God. I can show you Gospel passages showing all 3 members of the Trinity. I can show you passages where Jesus is praying to the Father, and talking about the 3rd person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.
There are many Mormons who marry in the temple, uniting them with their spouse for "time and eternity." Typically, when one spouse dies, the other remarries, but in a civil ceremony. They are believed to be united to the spouse they were "sealed" in the temple to forever and just married to the second spouse "until death do you part." I can think of many, many examples of this type of a situation. As far as everybody living together, I don't really see it in quite that way. I don't live with my parents any more and my kids don't live with my husband and me. The relationships are what matter, and we believe them to be eternal.
Mormon men are regularly sealed to a second spouse in a temple sealing. Usually, but not always, this is after the previous spouse has passed away. Given that the man is sealed to more than one woman, whith whom will the man be living with in the hereafter? Assume that all parties are worthy of exaltation in the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
We do have an official doctrine as to the potential God has given us to become like Him at some point in our eternal existence. We do not, on the other hand, have any official doctrine as to His beginnings. Some of our early leaders made statements along the lines that you have mentioned, but later leaders have stated that we have been given no word from God on the subject and that it is best not to speculate.
Are these statements included in the official canon of the LDS Church (the four standard works)? If not, should these statements be rejected in the same way that teachings of prophets in the non-canonized "Journal of Discourses" are to be rejected as a result of not being part of the official canon?
You have apparently been a member of the LDS church for some time. If so, I can only assume that you are able to recall when "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become" was taught as an official Mormon doctrine. Indeed, it is (was?) THE primary distinguishing factor between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity. Imagine my shock when Hinckley claimed that "I don't know that we teach it." However, I guess it doesn't matter, as Hinckley's statement isn't part of the official canon. Or is this a time when we are supposed to discern whether Hinckley was speaking a prophet, or just as a man?
Are these statements included in the official canon of the LDS Church (the four standard works)? If not, should these statements be rejected in the same way that teachings of prophets in the non-canonized "Journal of Discourses" are to be rejected as a result of not being part of the official canon?
You have apparently been a member of the LDS church for some time. If so, I can only assume that you are able to recall when "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become" was taught as an official Mormon doctrine. Indeed, it is (was?) THE primary distinguishing factor between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity. Imagine my shock when Hinckley claimed that "I don't know that we teach it." However, I guess it doesn't matter, as Hinckley's statement isn't part of the official canon. Or is this a time when we are supposed to discern whether Hinckley was speaking a prophet, or just as a man?
"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become" is a well-known couplet coined by LDS Church President Lorenzo Snow. When asked about it in an interview given many years later, then LDS Church President, Gordon B. Hinckley's response was: “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it … I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.” Snow's couplet was not a part of the official canon and neither was Hinckley's response. You were "shocked" by President Hinckley's response. That's strange. I wasn't in the slightest, particularly since he was commenting specifically on the first half of the couplet and not to the last half. The doctrine of the eternal progression of man is definitely canonical. Any doctrine on what God was "before the beginning," when He was most definitely "God," are and always have been purely speculative.
Mormon men are regularly sealed to a second spouse in a temple sealing. Usually, but not always, this is after the previous spouse has passed away. Given that the man is sealed to more than one woman, with whom will the man be living with in the hereafter? Assume that all parties are worthy of exaltation in the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
I would assume that he'd be living with both. Of course a temple sealing would be performed only if the second spouse had not already been sealed to another man.
"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become" is a well-known couplet coined by LDS Church President Lorenzo Snow. When asked about it in an interview given many years later, then LDS Church President, Gordon B. Hinckley's response was: “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it … I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.” Snow's couplet was not a part of the official canon and neither was Hinckley's response. You were "shocked" by President Hinckley's response. That's strange. I wasn't in the slightest, particularly since he was commenting specifically on the first half of the couplet and not to the last half. The doctrine of the eternal progression of man is definitely canonical. Any doctrine on what God was "before the beginning," when He was most definitely "God," are and always have been purely speculative.
It was regularly taught as doctrine, no speculation required. But many Mormon doctrines have morphed over the years, this is nothing new.
I would assume that he'd be living with both. Of course a temple sealing would be performed only if the second spouse had not already been sealed to another man.
Hasn't polygamy been completely renounced by the LDS church?
I'm only asking that you look at the clear teachings of Scripture. We can argue about what Jesus and the apostles did and did not teach...and that's fine. But again..I can quote you specific verses where the apostles clearly DID teach that all 3 members are God. I can show you Gospel passages showing all 3 members of the Trinity. I can show you passages where Jesus is praying to the Father, and talking about the 3rd person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.
Vizio, Mormons do teach that all three members of the Godhead are "God." I have even posted verses from the Book of Mormon saying that they are "one God." Like other Christians, Mormons often quote either Matthew 3:16-17, Mark 1:10-11 and Luke 3:21-22 to support their belief that the Godhead is comprised of three persons.
It was regularly taught as doctrine, no speculation required. But many Mormon doctrines have morphed over the years, this is nothing new.
Unlike traditional Christian doctrines?
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