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I posted an item earlier this morning which I would like to post again in a new thread:
This message is for Mike555 and others who have the opinion that we do not have to obey Jesus to be saved, that if a person believes is Jesus as His Savior he or she has eternal security and will go to heaven when they die.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments. Jesus said at least twice in John ch. 14 that if you love him you will keep His commandments. If we do not love Him and keep His commandments how can we enter ino eternal life?
And in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
See also Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-02-2015 at 08:57 AM..
I posted an item earlier this morning which I would like to post again in a new thread:
This message is for Mike555 and others who have the opinion that we do not have to obey Jesus to be saved, that if a person believes is Jesus as His Savior he or she has eternal security and will go to heaven when they die.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments. Jesus said at least twice in John ch. 14 that if you love him you will keep His commandments. If we do not love Him and keep His commandments how can we enter ino eternal life?
And in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
See also Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
To answer the question asked in the title, No, once saved always saved is not hyper-grace, it is simply grace.
The eternal security of the believer is Biblical as shown in such passages as John 6:39-40; Rom. 6:3-8, 8:1, 8:38-39, and Rom. 11:29. In Romans 11:28 Paul summarized God's dealings with Israel and with the Gentles regarding the gospel. In verse 29 he states that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Eternal life is a free gift (Eph. 2:8,9; Rev. 22:17) and is irrevocable.
No one has said that it is not necessary to obey God. The point is that obedience should be a result of having been saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Obedience however is not the cause of salvation or a requirement to maintain your eternal salvation.
I have already pointed out in another thread that Acts 10:44-48 tells us that the Gentile audience which was listening to Peter was saved even while Peter was still speaking. The only obedience on their part was to believe the gospel. They were saved even before they underwent the ritual of water baptism.
Regarding Heb. 5:9, the writer is not referring to eternal salvation in the sense of regeneration which occurs at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone. If he were he would be contradicting Scripture which states that eternal life is a free gift, given without cost. He was instead referring to the fullness or richness of salvation to be experienced in eternity by those who advance to spiritual maturity in time. Concerning what the writer of Hebrews was saying;
The salvation here referred to cannot be distinguished from that which is termed an inheritance (Heb. 1:14). It is also to be identified with the ''eternal inheritance'' mentioned in 9:15. It should not be confused with the acquisition of eternal life which is conditioned not on obedience but on faith (cf. John 3:16, etc.). Once again the writer had in mind final deliverance from and victory over all enemies and the consequent enjoyment of the ''glory'' of the many sons and daughters. This kind of salvation is explicitly contingent on obedience and indeed on an obedience modeled after that of Jesus who also suffered. It is thus closely related to the saying of the Lord in which He declared, ''If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for Me and for the gospel will save it'' (Mark 8:34-35). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 792.]
There will be degrees of blessing and rewards in the eternal state. All believers in Christ have eternal life and will be with God forever, but some believers will have rewards and blessing, as well as responsibilities because of their obedience in time that other believers will not have because of their disobedience and failure to advance spiritually after having been eternally saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
You should not have called me out specifically. Doing so puts me in the position of having to choose whether or not to take the time to post a reply or replies. This should be against forum rules.
It's been done, but good luck. I* believe that the point is to take some verses that tell an important part of what is needed and denigrate the ones that tell "the rest of the story."
I posted an item earlier this morning which I would like to post again in a new thread:
This message is for Mike555 and others who have the opinion that we do not have to obey Jesus to be saved, that if a person believes is Jesus as His Savior he or she has eternal security and will go to heaven when they die.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments. Jesus said at least twice in John ch. 14 that if you love him you will keep His commandments. If we do not love Him and keep His commandments how can we enter into eternal life?
And in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
See also Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Robert, I'm not a believer in their doctrine but I think I've come to terms with it by better understanding it.
The "Born Again Christian" doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is not a "no works nor obedience necessary" belief. Your average born again Christian would disagree by knee-jerk reflex because the word "works" seriously bugs them. But the reality is, they most definitely believe in the role of good works.
It's like asking whether the chicken or the egg came first. Christians who do not believe in their doctrine (which constitutes the huge majority of Christianity) will tell you that works must come before salvation can be possible. For them, the works came first. But for born again Christians, salvation comes first and then they show forth works. If a bad person is "saved" and you see no subsequent change in their behavior at all, then that person clearly must have faked it. There are several scriptures they'll reference which say exactly that. If a man or woman really and truly has been "saved" then they are a new creature and will no longer act in the same sinful ways they used to. So for them, salvation comes first, then works will follow.
Either way, we all believe in Christ and depend on Him for salvation. We also all believe in works. Hope that helps.
Robert, I'm not a believer in their doctrine but I think I've come to terms with it by better understanding it.
The "Born Again Christian" doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is not a "no works nor obedience necessary" belief. Your average born again Christian would disagree by knee-jerk reflex because the word "works" seriously bugs them. But the reality is, they most definitely believe in the role of good works.
It's like asking whether the chicken or the egg came first. Christians who do not believe in their doctrine (which constitutes the huge majority of Christianity) will tell you that works must come before salvation can be possible. For them, the works came first. But for born again Christians, salvation comes first and then they show forth works. If a bad person is "saved" and you see no subsequent change in their behavior at all, then that person clearly must have faked it. There are several scriptures they'll reference which say exactly that. If a man or woman really and truly has been "saved" then they are a new creature and will no longer act in the same sinful ways they used to. So for them, salvation comes first, then works will follow.
Either way, we all believe in Christ and depend on Him for salvation. We also all believe in works. Hope that helps.
I'm not sure to which group your comment, - ''If a bad person is "saved" and you see no subsequent change in their behavior at all, then that person clearly must have faked it.'' - is referring. But just to clarify, Neither I or the pastors I have studied under, who believe in the eternal security of the believer believe that if a believer does not show works this means he was never saved. I have gone into detail on other threads concerning the fact that a lack of works does not mean a person was never saved. However, if and when the believer is in fellowship, he is in a position to produce works that will be found to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones' at the judgment seat of Christ and therefore rewardable (1 Cor. 3:12-15).
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-02-2015 at 02:45 PM..
I posted an item earlier this morning which I would like to post again in a new thread:
This message is for Mike555 and others who have the opinion that we do not have to obey Jesus to be saved, that if a person believes is Jesus as His Savior he or she has eternal security and will go to heaven when they die.
I do not understand how any of the Once Saved Always Saved groups take the position that if you believe on Jesus as your Savior, it is not necessary for you to keep His commandments. Jesus said at least twice in John ch. 14 that if you love him you will keep His commandments. If we do not love Him and keep His commandments how can we enter ino eternal life?
And in Luke 6:[46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
See also Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
We are strictly speaking salvation. The NT repeatedly mentions the Holy Spirit is the pledge of our inheritance (Eph.1:13-14; 1 Cor. 6:19; Rom. 8:16-17) - not works.
You mention if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. That's true. However, salvation is not mentioned. Being born into the family of God by faith has nothing to do with keeping commandments... just like my kids born into my family remain my kids even though they don't always follow instructions. I say the same things to my kids - I give them food and shelter and love them and then they act up, and I ask them - why do you say you love me and NOT do what I say? God is a much better Father than I am. He will remain faithful regardless of our behavior.
Now the judgment we get before entering into His presence - that will be based on works.
Robert, I'm not a believer in their doctrine but I think I've come to terms with it by better understanding it.
The "Born Again Christian" doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is not a "no works nor obedience necessary" belief. Your average born again Christian would disagree by knee-jerk reflex because the word "works" seriously bugs them. But the reality is, they most definitely believe in the role of good works.
It's like asking whether the chicken or the egg came first. Christians who do not believe in their doctrine (which constitutes the huge majority of Christianity) will tell you that works must come before salvation can be possible. For them, the works came first. But for born again Christians, salvation comes first and then they show forth works. If a bad person is "saved" and you see no subsequent change in their behavior at all, then that person clearly must have faked it. There are several scriptures they'll reference which say exactly that. If a man or woman really and truly has been "saved" then they are a new creature and will no longer act in the same sinful ways they used to. So for them, salvation comes first, then works will follow.
Either way, we all believe in Christ and depend on Him for salvation. We also all believe in works. Hope that helps.
I agree with you and James 2:[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
We MUST have the Holy Spirit to be saved. Our natural righteousnesses are as filthy rags in the sight of God. Only the works of the Holy Spirit are accepted by God, and we have nothing of which we can boast. If we truly believe on Christ and truly repent, we will love Christ and our chief desire is to do the will of God. Jesus said in 8th chapter of Luke that His mother and His brethren (His family) are those who hear the Word of God and DO it. Faith which manifests no fruits of the Holy Spirit is dead. We MUST become new creatures in Christ.
Jesus tells the story in Matt. 12:[43] When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man (implying that the man had received the Holy Spirit) he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. [44] Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. [45] Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
I believe this is an example of the unforgivable sin, where a person with the Holy Spirit commis a premeditated, malicious, willful sin by which he has blasphemed the Holy Gost and cannot be brought back to repentance. See Heb. chapter 6.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 03-02-2015 at 03:50 PM..
The words of Paul are appropriate to this thread. See Rom. 6:[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If we are servants of righteousness, and hold out until death, we can enter into eternal life. We must be possessors of the Holy Ghost, which the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives to those who OBEY HIM.
The words of Paul are appropriate to this thread. See Rom. 6:[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If we are servants of righteousness, and hold out until death, we can enter into eternal life. We must be possessors of the Holy Ghost, which the Apostles said in Acts 5:32 that God gives to those who OBEY HIM.
As I pointed out in post #2, Acts 10:44-48 tells us that the Gentile audience which was listening to Peter was saved even while Peter was still speaking. The only obedience on their part was to believe the gospel (Acts 16:30-31). They were saved even before they underwent the ritual of water baptism. They received the Holy Spirit even while Peter was still speaking.
Eternal life is given at the moment of faith in Christ. Not at the end of a lifetime of obedience.
Titus 3:5He saved (Aorist Indicative)us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
'He saved' is in the aorist tense in the indicative mood which denotes action which took place in past time. Eternal life is given whenever a person simply places his faith in Christ. It is not a result of obedience throughout one's lifetime.
Do you understand that Scripture says that eternal life is a free gift?
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
A gift is something that is given by one person to another person without any obligation on the part of the one receiving the gift.
Salvation by obedience is a false gospel which is simply salvation by works because it makes something that you do, it makes your efforts at obedience a requirement in order to earn eternal life. It is in polar opposition to grace. And eternal salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Making obedience a requirement for eternal life is in direct opposition to grace.
No one is suggesting or promoting not being obedient. But obedience is not a condition for eternal salvation.
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