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You take passages out of their context and attempt use them to argue against the substitutionary death of Christ. You take passages such at Deut. 24:16, 2 Chron. 25:4, and Jer. 31:30 which refer to the fact that under the Mosaic Law, a man must take responsibility for his own sins and in cases of capital punishment (physical death) be put to death for his own sins, and not for the sins of another. This has absolutely nothing to do with God sending Christ into the world to die for the sins of the world in order to provide eternal salvation from the lake of fire for those who believe on Him.
No...You are the one that takes them out of context...
6For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.
Rashi's Commentary:
For I, the Lord, have not changed: Although I keep back My anger for a long time, My mind has not changed from the way it was originally, to love evil and to hate good.
and you, the sons of Jacob: Although you die in your evil, and I have not requited the wicked in their lifetime
you have not reached the end: You are not finished from before Me, for I have left over the souls to be requited in Gehinnom. And so did Jonathan render. And you of the House of Jacob, who think that whoever dies in this world, his verdict has already ended, that is to say, you think that My verdict has been nullified, that he will no longer be punished. Our Sages (Sotah 9a), however, explained it: לֹא שָׁנִיתִי - I did not strike a nation and repeat a blow to it; but as for you, I have kept you up after much punishment, and My arrows are ended, but you are not ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You totally ignore the fact that Isaiah 53, even if you try to argue that it refers to the nation Israel, which it doesn't, it refers to the Messiah, clearly speaks of one bearing the guilt, the transgressions, the iniquities of others.
Isaiah 53:4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5]But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And be His scourging we are healed.
6] All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
10] But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
11] As a result of the anguish of His soul He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sins of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
Here is God's servant bearing and carrying the griefs and sorrows of others, being pierced through for the transgressions of others. Here is the LORD causing the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. Here we see God's righteous servant rendering Himself as a guilt offering, bearing the sins of many and interceding on the behalf of the transgressors and dying for them.
Anyone can see here, Mike, that it is YOU who take things out of context...You began at verse 4 and went to 12, because if you started at verse 1 it would make your little house of cards go down...
1.Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? א.מִי הֶאֱמִין לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ וּזְרוֹעַ יְהֹוָה עַל מִי נִגְלָתָה:
Rashi's Commentary:
Who would have believed our report: So will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.
the arm of the Lord: like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?
2.And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? ב.וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה לֹא תֹאַר לוֹ וְלֹא הָדָר וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא מַרְאֶה וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ:
Rashi's Commentary:
And he came up like a sapling before it: This people, before this greatness came to it, was a very humble people, and it came up by itself like a sapling of the saplings of the trees.
and like a root: he came up from dry land.
neither form: had he in the beginning, nor comeliness.
and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?: And when we saw him from the beginning without an appearance, how could we desire him?
Now shall we desire him?: This is a question.
3.Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. ג.נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ:
Rashi's Commentary:
Despised and rejected by men: was he. So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”
and as one who hides his face from us: Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.
4.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. ד.אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה:
Rashi's Commentary:
Indeed, he bore our illnesses: Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him: We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities.
5.But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. ה.וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנוֹתֵינוּ מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא לָנוּ:
Rashi's Commentary:
the chastisement of our welfare was upon him: The chastisement due to the welfare that we enjoyed, came upon him, for he was chastised so that there be peace for the entire world.
6.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. ו.כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ וַיהֹוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲו*ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ:
We all went astray like sheep: Now it is revealed that all the heathens (nations [mss.]) had erred.
Rashi's Commentary:
accepted his prayers: He accepted his prayers and was appeased concerning the iniquity of all of us, that He did not destroy His world.
accepted… prayers: Heb. הִפְגִּיעַ, espriad in O.F., an expression of supplication.
7.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. ז.נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה וְלֹא יִפְתַּח פִּיו כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה וְלֹא יִפְתַּח פִּיו:
Rashi's Commentary:
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted: Behold he was oppressed by taskmasters and people who exert pressure.
and he was afflicted: with verbal taunts, sorparlec in O.F.
yet he would not open his mouth: He would suffer and remain silent like the lamb that is brought to the slaughter, and like the ewe that is mute before her shearers.
and he would not open his mouth: This refers to the lamb brought to the slaughter.
8.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. ח.מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח וְאֶת דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ:
Rashi's Commentary:
From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken: The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.
and his generation: The years that passed over him.
who shall tell?: The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.
9.And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. ט.וַיִּתֵּן אֶת רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ וְאֶת עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו עַל לֹא חָמָס עָשָׂה וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו:
Rashi's Commentary:
And he gave his grave to the wicked: He subjected himself to be buried according to anything the wicked of the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) would decree upon him, for they would penalize him with death and the burial of donkeys in the intestines of the dogs.
to the wicked: According to the will of the wicked, he was willing to be buried, and he would not deny the living God.
and to the wealthy with his kinds of death: and to the will of the ruler he subjected himself to all kinds of death that he decreed upon him, because he did not wish to agree to (denial) [of the Torah] to commit evil and to rob like all the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) among whom he lived.
and there was no deceit in his mouth: to accept idolatry (to accept a pagan deity as God [Parshandatha]).
10.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. י.וַיהֹוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי אִם תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים וְחֵפֶץ יְהֹוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח:
Rashi's Commentary:
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
11.From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. יא.מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי לָרַבִּים וַעֲו*ֹנֹתָם הוּא יִסְבֹּל:
Rashi's Commentary:
From the toil of his soul: he would eat and be satisfied, and he would not rob and plunder.
with his knowledge… would vindicate the just: My servant would judge justly all those who came to litigate before him.
and their iniquities he would bear: He would bear, in the manner of all the righteous, as it is said (Num. 18:1): “You and your sons shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary.”
12.Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. יב.לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק לוֹ בָרַבִּים וְאֶת עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ וְאֶת פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה וְהוּא חֵטְא רַבִּים נָשָׂא וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ:
Rashi's Commentary:
Therefore: Because he did this, I will allot him an inheritance and a lot in public with the Patriarchs.
he poured out his soul to death: Heb. הֶעֱרָה. An expression like (Gen. 24: 20), “And she emptied (וַתְּעַר) her pitcher.”
and with transgressors he was counted: He suffered torments as if he had sinned and transgressed, and this is because of others; he bore the sin of the many.
and interceded for the transgressors: through his sufferings, for good came to the world through him.
Now, Let's put all your "cherry picked" verses side-by-side with what is REALLY says in the TaNaKh...
Blue = Correct translation.
Red = In-correct translation. (Red Like the cherry)
Isaiah 53:
1.Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2.And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3.Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
When in the life of Yeshua was he ever a man of pains and accustomed to illness, or when did he ever hide his face from anyone???...
4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
4.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
Again, when did this ever happen???...
5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And be His scourging we are healed.
5.But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6] All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
6.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
When did a plague ever befall Yeshua???...
9.And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10] But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
10.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
G-d wished to crush him...But when did G-d ever make him ill?...And it is HIS soul that makes ITSELF restitution...And when did Yeshua EVER have children????...And when did G-d prolong his days?...33 years seems to be cut quite short...
11] As a result of the anguish of His soul He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
11.From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
Looks like it says here that G-d's servant will VINDICATE THE JUST...
12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sins of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
12.Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Huh, so now Yeshua, according to you, is a plunderer....
No...You are the one that takes them out of context...
6For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.
Rashi's Commentary:
For I, the Lord, have not changed: Although I keep back My anger for a long time, My mind has not changed from the way it was originally, to love evil and to hate good.
and you, the sons of Jacob: Although you die in your evil, and I have not requited the wicked in their lifetime
you have not reached the end: You are not finished from before Me, for I have left over the souls to be requited in Gehinnom. And so did Jonathan render. And you of the House of Jacob, who think that whoever dies in this world, his verdict has already ended, that is to say, you think that My verdict has been nullified, that he will no longer be punished. Our Sages (Sotah 9a), however, explained it: לֹא שָׁנִיתִי - I did not strike a nation and repeat a blow to it; but as for you, I have kept you up after much punishment, and My arrows are ended, but you are not ended.
Anyone can see here, Mike, that it is YOU who take things out of context...You began at verse 4 and went to 12, because if you started at verse 1 it would make your little house of cards go down...
1.Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? א.מִי הֶאֱמִין לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ וּזְרוֹעַ יְהֹוָה עַל מִי נִגְלָתָה:
Rashi's Commentary:
Who would have believed our report: So will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.
the arm of the Lord: like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?
2.And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? ב.וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה לֹא תֹאַר לוֹ וְלֹא הָדָר וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא מַרְאֶה וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ:
Rashi's Commentary:
And he came up like a sapling before it: This people, before this greatness came to it, was a very humble people, and it came up by itself like a sapling of the saplings of the trees.
and like a root: he came up from dry land.
neither form: had he in the beginning, nor comeliness.
and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?: And when we saw him from the beginning without an appearance, how could we desire him?
Now shall we desire him?: This is a question.
3.Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. ג.נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ:
Rashi's Commentary:
Despised and rejected by men: was he. So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”
and as one who hides his face from us: Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.
4.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. ד.אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה:
Rashi's Commentary:
Indeed, he bore our illnesses: Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him: We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities.
5.But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. ה.וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנוֹתֵינוּ מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא לָנוּ:
Rashi's Commentary:
the chastisement of our welfare was upon him: The chastisement due to the welfare that we enjoyed, came upon him, for he was chastised so that there be peace for the entire world.
6.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. ו.כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ וַיהֹוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲו*ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ:
We all went astray like sheep: Now it is revealed that all the heathens (nations [mss.]) had erred.
Rashi's Commentary:
accepted his prayers: He accepted his prayers and was appeased concerning the iniquity of all of us, that He did not destroy His world.
accepted… prayers: Heb. הִפְגִּיעַ, espriad in O.F., an expression of supplication.
7.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. ז.נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה וְלֹא יִפְתַּח פִּיו כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה וְלֹא יִפְתַּח פִּיו:
Rashi's Commentary:
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted: Behold he was oppressed by taskmasters and people who exert pressure.
and he was afflicted: with verbal taunts, sorparlec in O.F.
yet he would not open his mouth: He would suffer and remain silent like the lamb that is brought to the slaughter, and like the ewe that is mute before her shearers.
and he would not open his mouth: This refers to the lamb brought to the slaughter.
8.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. ח.מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח וְאֶת דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ:
Rashi's Commentary:
From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken: The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.
and his generation: The years that passed over him.
who shall tell?: The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.
9.And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. ט.וַיִּתֵּן אֶת רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ וְאֶת עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו עַל לֹא חָמָס עָשָׂה וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו:
Rashi's Commentary:
And he gave his grave to the wicked: He subjected himself to be buried according to anything the wicked of the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) would decree upon him, for they would penalize him with death and the burial of donkeys in the intestines of the dogs.
to the wicked: According to the will of the wicked, he was willing to be buried, and he would not deny the living God.
and to the wealthy with his kinds of death: and to the will of the ruler he subjected himself to all kinds of death that he decreed upon him, because he did not wish to agree to (denial) [of the Torah] to commit evil and to rob like all the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) among whom he lived.
and there was no deceit in his mouth: to accept idolatry (to accept a pagan deity as God [Parshandatha]).
10.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. י.וַיהֹוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי אִם תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים וְחֵפֶץ יְהֹוָה בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח:
Rashi's Commentary:
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
11.From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. יא.מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי לָרַבִּים וַעֲו*ֹנֹתָם הוּא יִסְבֹּל:
Rashi's Commentary:
From the toil of his soul: he would eat and be satisfied, and he would not rob and plunder.
with his knowledge… would vindicate the just: My servant would judge justly all those who came to litigate before him.
and their iniquities he would bear: He would bear, in the manner of all the righteous, as it is said (Num. 18:1): “You and your sons shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary.”
12.Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. יב.לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק לוֹ בָרַבִּים וְאֶת עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ וְאֶת פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה וְהוּא חֵטְא רַבִּים נָשָׂא וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ:
Rashi's Commentary:
Therefore: Because he did this, I will allot him an inheritance and a lot in public with the Patriarchs.
he poured out his soul to death: Heb. הֶעֱרָה. An expression like (Gen. 24: 20), “And she emptied (וַתְּעַר) her pitcher.”
and with transgressors he was counted: He suffered torments as if he had sinned and transgressed, and this is because of others; he bore the sin of the many.
and interceded for the transgressors: through his sufferings, for good came to the world through him.
Now, Let's put all your "cherry picked" verses side-by-side with what is REALLY says in the TaNaKh...
Blue = Correct translation.
Red = In-correct translation. (Red Like the cherry)
Isaiah 53:
1.Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2.And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3.Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
When in the life of Yeshua was he ever a man of pains and accustomed to illness, or when did he ever hide his face from anyone???...
4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
4.Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
Again, when did this ever happen???...
5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And be His scourging we are healed.
5.But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6] All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
6.We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7.He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
When did a plague ever befall Yeshua???...
9.And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10] But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
10.And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
G-d wished to crush him...But when did G-d ever make him ill?...And it is HIS soul that makes ITSELF restitution...And when did Yeshua EVER have children????...And when did G-d prolong his days?...33 years seems to be cut quite short...
11] As a result of the anguish of His soul He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.
11.From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
Looks like it says here that G-d's servant will VINDICATE THE JUST...
12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sins of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
12.Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Huh, so now Yeshua, according to you, is a plunderer....
You know, I really don't care what you or Rashi think about it. Isaiah 53 speaks of the righteous servant bearing the sins for others. I simply presented in post #38 the verses that directly speak to that fact. I also stated that even if you attempt to argue that this does not refer to the Messiah, but to the nation Israel, it still shows the righteous servant bearing the sins of others. But it does speak of the Messiah.
And as you were shown on the thread - //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...god-devil.html, in posts #64 and 89, most Jewish commentators over the last two thousand years have understood Isaiah 53 to be speaking of the Messiah.
I think you are trying to impress the people over on the Jewish forum by posting here and battling the Christians and Christianity. Whether you or they like it or not, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and He died for the sins of the world as the New Testament Scriptures declare.
In continuing to deny that Isaiah 53 says that the suffering Servant would bear and die for the sins of others, in continuing to deny the fact that many Jewish commentators have said that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah, and in continuing to disregard the fact that the New Testament Scriptures declare that Jesus is the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the world, you are simply showing your willingness to disregard truth in order to hold to the beliefs of orthodox Judaism. That's your choice. I'm not about to waste my time going back and forth about it. I'm not obligated to keep speaking the truth to those who reject it.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-05-2015 at 01:52 PM..
You know, I really don't care what you or Rashi think about it.
But, yet, you love to throw Wallace and others out there as proof to what you say....But, you won't even consider what Rashi has to say, but you want others to accept Wallace's opinion?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Isaiah 53 speaks of the righteous servant bearing the sins for others. I simply presented in post #38 the verses that directly speak to that fact. I also stated that even if you attempt to argue that this does not refer to the Messiah, but to the nation Israel, it still shows the righteous servant bearing the sins of others. But it does speak of the Messiah.
Isaiah 53 what?...
No, you cherry picked the verses and you know it...Why lie...The only reason some one cherry picks verses is that if they put it down in context then it would dismantle their argument, "oh, my, I can't include that, it would contradict what I am trying to say."...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And as you were shown on the thread - //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...god-devil.html, in posts #64 and 89, most Jewish commentators over the last two thousand years have understood Isaiah 53 to be speaking of the Messiah.
And as you've been shown, that is false...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I think you are trying to impress the people over on the Jewish forum by posting here and battling the Christians and Christianity. Whether you or they like it or not, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and He died for the sins of the world as the New Testament Scriptures declare.
And you have been warned, so when you stand before G-d, you have no excuse for worshipping an idol...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
In continuing to deny that Isaiah 53 says that the suffering Servant would bear and die for the sins of others.
But that is not what Isaiah says...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
in continuing to deny the fact the many Jewish commentators have said that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah, and in continuing to disregard the fact that the New Testament Scriptures declare that Jesus is the Messiah and that He died for the sins of the world
However, the Old Testament scriptures state that is not the case, in fact, the TNK states that the New Covenant is to be made with ISARAEL...Not the GENTILES...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
, you are simply showing your willingness to disregard truth in order to hold to the beliefs of orthodox Judaism. That's your choice. I'm not about to waste my time going back and forth about it. I'm not obligated to keep speaking the truth to those who reject it.
YOU are showing your willingness to disregard the truth because you do not possess and open mind and a willingness to accept the truth no matter how hard is to accept considering your indoctrination...I don't think you really want to know G-d on His terms, rather you want to know G-d on YOUR terms...
Jesus quote " no one goes to the Father but by Me". End of story .
True . . but what do you think that means???
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