"Free will" and Romans chapter 9 (pray, heaven, witness)
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Dear friend we all have issues regardless of what religion we are. I have been reading your posts and I have become very curious about you and who do you believe in if not the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob? I am not standing in judgment against you, however, I am standing in a place of learning. Have you ever read the Bible front to back or did you just pick that one scripture out? Did you attend a church when you were younger and then as you got older you turned against God or decided not to beleive? Or have you never been to church and was raised believing in a different religion. Please tell me what you believe so that I may understand you better.
Dear friend we all have issues regardless of what religion we are. I have been reading your posts and I have become very curious about you and who do you believe in if not the God of (1) Abraham, Issac, and Jacob? I am not standing in judgment against you, however, I am standing in a place of learning. (2) Have you ever read the Bible front to back or did you just pick that one scripture out? (3) Did you attend a church when you were younger and then as you got older you turned against God or decided not to beleive? Or have you never been to church and was raised believing in a different religion. Please tell me what you believe so that I may understand you better.
Not sure who you are addressing this to but as I was the last one to post prior to you, I guess it is me.
I used to be a Praise and Worship leader in a Charismatic Church and part of the leadership for 8 years. I do not discuss why I left.
Are you looking for qualifications? I have none apart from personal study and meditation of the word. What I share is not the traditional rhetoric, maybe that is why you are confused. BTW CU is a rapidly growing school of thought and i have essentially believed in it all my life, just never knew there was a label for it. Americans seem to like labels. I call myself a Christian.
Even if I turned against God, He will not leave me. See my salvation is not dependent on me but fully on the Father.
Not sure if that answers your questions if it was me you were talking to.
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Fitted= katartivzw
Katartivizw =
To render, to fit, sound, complete.
To mend what has been broken or rent.
To repair.
To complete.
To fit out. To equip.
To put in order. To arrange. To adjust.
To fit, or frame, prepare for one's self.
To strengthen. To perfect. To complete.
To make one what he ought to be.
Wow! Our Father has vessels that are heading for destruction, and linked with destruction is transformation. What God breaks and rends, he repairs...let's call it the Repair of all repairs. And the Repair job encompasses fitting and framing and preparing one for Himself. He destroys, He breaks, He rends: to what end? To perfect & complete, to put in order, to arrange & to adjust. And the final adjustment is to make one what he aught to be! This may not thrill you and I, and Joe down the block, but this is the God to whom the ends of the world are coming.
and I quote:
..........but I could swear that what I posted up top sounds like we don't have a say in the matter. 'Vessels of wrath prepared...???" He 'hardens' who he desires to harden and shows mercy to those he wants to show mercy to?
.......Please, can someone with the insight come make sense of this for me? Thanks.
ok let me try, but know I am not at all trying to defend God for he needs no defense from me.
now let's see, if there is one thing I do understand it is this; because according to the bibles expression we are clay vessels in God's hand it is clear to me that in order for clay to become harden you simply have to do NOTHING to it. as it sits basking in the wonderful sunshine freely given the clay hardens more and more until it's just like stone. no labor involved on God's part, and he has not a hand in it, but only allowing it to do what comes naturally when the supernatural is not involved.
God would be sooo unjust to give us a freewill, and then snatch it back when we are charging in the wrong direction by choice. He also wouldn't be the God he is, if he forced us to be tender hearted and kind to others because then we would be robots. he offers us the best {Himself} so that we can become the best in him, but if we go wrong, well, he'll still find some use for us.
because God is such the vital source of all things if one decides to disobey God and go their own way, just God simply allowing them to suffer their choice brings them into the worst of state. God does not have to withdraw, all God does is allow people the will to depart from him and what they become when they are away from him is still profitable for God. Good or bad, evil or loving, no matter what part you land in, you are still where you are by choice. if your choice brings God to do nothing for your cause then what you become from this is not God's fault just because he can use a nagative for a positive. He is God and he knows how to benefit from the bottom line.
the fact that people will go to hell does not mean God took their freewill from them and they had no choice. the truth here is that just because God knows they will go to hell, and speaks of it in the bible, doesn't make them go to hell, but only that God knows already. therefore by your own choice, mixed with God being God, there is nothing "that is" that God can't make use of. God is the most resourceful one there is and all the credit belongs to him for having a way to make it all work for the good of those who love and serve him.
God doesn't have to toss people off to hell. all he does is allow man to have the will to choose to reject Him, if that's what they want. the rejection of heaven automaticly makes them a citizen of hell, and all this is under God's majesty.
I suppose we could either win with God or loose without him, huh?
let me also add that God's allowance of something is the same as Him doing it, only in that there is absolutely nothing happening anywhere with anyone that is BEYOND GOD. hey, even the devil is God's devil just remember he wasn't always the fallen angel he is now.
who can become harden unless God allow them to, and when God allows them to, then shouldn't it be up to that person to do something with whats there? let's face it, nobody can step outside of the sovereignty of God and no choice you make be it good or bad that puts God in a possition where he's at an disadvantage. He's God!
That makes sense but it sure is a bummer that if I choose another plan, even if it is not hurting anyone or even me, hell fire and brimstone awaits me.
That makes sense but it sure is a bummer that if I choose another plan, even if it is not hurting anyone or even me, hell fire and brimstone awaits me.
It awaits all of us to some degree - no flesh (carnality) will enter in, but that's another thread/story/sermon.
Too much scripture to support the sovereignty of God.
Amen. God bless.
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