"Free will" and Romans chapter 9 (testimonies, doctrine, suicide)

[DonGorgonIV]

Well this is getting juicy. Very good example of how the holy spirit can bring god's people to completely different conclusions on god's word.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by DonGorgonIV

Well this is getting juicy. Very good example of how the holy spirit can bring god's people to completely different conclusions on god's word.

That's the problem. The Holy Spirit does NOT bring us to difference conclusions. Where there are disagreements among believers concerning the meaning of God's Word, it is our faults, not the Holy Spirit's. (I am speaking of myself here also!)

Preterist

[ShanaBrown]

think Kratos has answered satisfactory.

Hi Seeker, maybe Kratos answered satifactory to you, but I still have problems with his answer


Krato:

If this were not the point that God was making in Rom. 9, we would have to assume that God has ordained that all elder brothers must serve all younger brothers because God always loves the younger brother and hates the older brothers.

Shana

Why must this be assumed from the passage?



I can see how both would relate but I one problem I have with the your perspective is that the old man is to be put to death in all of us, not just be servant to the spiritual man. Where does the passage in which Paul says that God will have compassion/mercy on whomever He wills come in, with your perspective? I don't see how it fits/ Aren't there examples of God having certain roles for people? For example, look at the Hebrew nation and God's promise to Abraham. All people are to be blessed as a result though. It isn't about hate. The word for hate in the Romans passage has a range of meanings. God bless.

[/quote]\

Shana

wrt Predestination or Pretermination, both of which I abhor intensely is based on Romans 9 yet ignores so many other texts showing our responsibility and the exercising of choice.

With Predestination, in effect, it is "by chance" you are saved as you need to have been one of the elect. This in essence nullifies all choice wrt "getting saved"

Hi, I believe that there are many scriptures which speak to God's sovereign choice of individuals and nations and I believe that some are elected to salvation in this age, but that all will be reconciled to God eventually. I believe that God gives us self wills to exercise but that He ultimately works all according to His will. I don't understand what you are saying in the second quote. Please clarify.

Pretermination goes one step further and thus says all is ordained of God in the first place and we really have no say in the matters or affairs of our existence whatsoever. Thus illness, misfortune, good fortune et al is ordained of God and hence we waste our time praying for that to change as it was sent of God.

I believe that the passage in Romans 9 is speaking of predetination but I do believe that all is out of God including illness, misfortune, and good fortune I believe that prayer brings our wills into line with God's will and that although God sees beginning to end, we don't. God exercises our wills to teach us to depend on Him and I believe that prayer is part of our development in learning to trust in God in all things.

The way I disprove it is this:

You get ill and believe that God brings this upon you. Even the extreme folk believe we still have some choice to a degree. You can either:

1. Rebuke it. Are you in His will or not?
2. Accept it. Are you in His will or not?
3. Deny God is the Great Physician

I believe that it may or may not be God's will to heal a person. We pray, if it is your will, Father.

Then we can look at another extreme. You are a faithful Christian and do all the best you can, meet all said requirements of church laws, IOW a squeaky clean and righteous Christian. One day your 5 year old daughter is kidnapped, raped and her murdered mutilated corpse found a few days later.

If that is willed of God, what message is He trying to convey to you? Predetermination says all comes from God.

If God sees beginning to end, then I believe that He knows all that will happen and if he knows this, He brought it into existence when He created us. God may be teaching us many things through the experience of evil, including the need to trust Him in all circumstances, for example, I believe.

This is where it gets tricky.


It is from God, thus God can break His own laws of thou shalt not kill and do not commit adultery

.

I believe that all is out of God (Romans 11) and that He is the giver of life and that He also takes life away. He gives us the ability to make choices, to disobey but I believe that it is all a part of our development of being made into His image. We experience the horrible results of sin to teach us about the destructiveness of sin and to contrast that with the holiness and righteousness of God, I believe.

Well such a God I do not want to serve as He is sicker than most earthly fathers.

You have a right to express your feelings on this

The other extreme side of the same coin is open theism which states our will can upsurp the will of the Father, thus we can choose to disobey Him and catch him by surprise. Thus we are set on a course and every single action we do by choice by 6.7Bn folk is adjusting the space-time continuum every nanosecond.

That God too I do not want to know as He really seems to have created a monster He cannot control.

The truth is found in neither extreme but somewhere inbetween.

God delegated dominion to us and has never retracted it. I am sure He intervenes as He had to with the Hebrews when they nearly got themselves wiped out a number of times.

There are just too many scrips that show we have choice, we choose to forgive to be forgiven likewise hence we have some free-will.

I believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His will, although I do believe that God gives us choices, I don't believe that we have absolute free will.

The problem comes in with traditional beliefs that we who are "saved" are either predestined aka elect or we stumbled on it an chose differently to other folk. Neither are true.

God wills that all men be saved, He sent His Son, He "died" for ALL mankind past, present and future.

I agree.

For me salvation is a done deal, even viewed from the traditional sense. All are saved already and we who come to the "salvation experience" have a John 6:44 epiphany aka few chosen. The rest do not see it until it to happens to them. I view all this from a perspective of Unconditional Love, the message I believe Jesus taught.

I agree that all are ultimately reconciled to God also, and I believe in the unconditional love. The belief that God predestines individual for example for certain roles, does not mean that His love is conditional. I believe that some are elected to salvation in this age to be a blessing to others, according to what God has purposed.

Many will say yes He is Unconditional but.... No buts. Unconditional means just that, Unconditional. As soon as we make His Love conditional, then His love is no more significant than ours is. He loved us first. He chose us, we did not choose Him.

I agree that God's love is unconditional and that He chose us. We did not choose Him. This is one reason that I do not believe in absolute free will.

If Jesus said I shall draw all men unto me and we know that one day every knee shall bow to the Glory of the Father, the part we play is sharing the Good News. The good news is that He loves us unconditionally, the bad news is the church hangs a slant on this love with buts.

I also believe that Jesus will draw all men to Himself, but I don't believe that He draws all at the same time. God's choice and predetermined plan is to draw all to Himself and reconcile all to Himself. No one will be able to resist His unconditional love and power.

The closer you move into the Father the further you walk away from sin.

Yes.

I will stop here as there is much more to share.

I hope I have explained a bit better what I see.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I hope that you realize that we may not agree on certain things, meaning that as I respect your right to believe and express your perspective on this subject, I hope that you will respect my right to believe and express my perspective on this subject Although we agree on some things, we have a different perspective on others. I also hope that you can see where I am coming from. God bless and thanks for sharing.



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[ShanaBrown]

Well this is getting juicy.

Very juicy May God bless us in the study of His word.

Very good example of how the holy spirit can bring god's people to completely different conclusions on god's word.

Very good example of how we are delving into God's word to get a clearer understanding as God allows. Now, if we can keep the right spirit as we delve into God's word, that may be the question (speaking of myself too!) Love it! God bless.

[Kratos]

Shana,

Thank your for responding to my post and for the spirit by which you are discussing these difficult areas of scripture. Holy wars have been fought over Rom. 9 and "heretics" burned at the stake on either side. I hope we do better.

I am sure that you are familiar with I Cor. 10:11 and Rom. 15:4 which reveal God's purpose for the things written in the OT. These things happened to them and were written down for our admonition on whom the ends of the world have come. In other words, these were natural people whom God directed their lives to reveal spiritual truth to us. With that in mind, let's look at Gal. 4 regarding the alegory of two sons throughout scripture:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

These verses reveal that the two sons are meant to be an alegory of two kinds of men. The first born represents the one born after the flesh who God hates and wants tossed out and the second born represents the one born after the spirit whom God loves and has ordained will inherit the promise. Now relate this to Rom. 9:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

It has never been about God choosing to love some people and hate others. It is about one kind of man (first Adam's race) whom God hates and another kind of man (last Adam's race) that He loves. That which is born after the flesh in all of us are the children of the bondwoman and that which is born after the spirit in all of us are the children of promise whom God loves.

To me, this is the only possible interpretation of these verses if we are also to believe that God is no respector of persons. He hates the flesh in all of us equally and loves that which is of the spirit in all of us equally. He is fair to all of His children.

John

PS Sorry for the font changes, but I am new here and this site does not seem to take e-sword quotes right and I find no way to adjust the font size before posting. I will have to learn to use this site when I have more time as i am sneaking a post while at work.

[ShanaBrown]

Shana,

Thank your for responding to my post and for the spirit by which you are discussing these difficult areas of scripture. Holy wars have been fought over Rom. 9 and "heretics" burned at the stake on either side. I hope we do better.

I am sure that you are familiar with I Cor. 10:11 and Rom. 15:4 which reveal God's purpose for the things written in the OT. These things happened to them and were written down for our admonition on whom the ends of the world have come. In other words, these were natural people whom God directed their lives to reveal spiritual truth to us. With that in mind, let's look at Gal. 4 regarding the alegory of two sons throughout scripture:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

These verses reveal that the two sons are meant to be an alegory of two kinds of men. The first born represents the one born after the flesh who God hates and wants tossed out and the second born represents the one born after the spirit whom God loves and has ordained will inherit the promise. Now relate this to Rom. 9:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



It has never been about God choosing to love some people and hate others.


It is about one kind of man (first Adam's race) whom God hates and another kind of man (last Adam's race) that He loves. That which is born after the flesh in all of us are the children of the bondwoman and that which is born after the spirit in all of us are the children of promise whom God loves.

To me, this is the only possible interpretation of these verses if we are also to believe that God is no respector of persons. He hates the flesh in all of us equally and loves that which is of the spirit in all of us equally. He is fair to all of His children

Hi John, thank you very much for sharing this perspective and maybe it can be perceived like this on one level. I can see it except for a few problems. But in looking at the context of the Galatians passage, to me, Paul says that this is an allegory and he explains what the allegory is, that being the difference between believers who are no longer under the law and those of the physical circumcision. In Gal. 5 Paul says to the believers, "It was for freedom that Christ sets us free, therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery. Behold I Paul say to you that if you receive circumcision Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law..."

So I believe this refers to the two covenants,one being for those who were under the Law seeking to be justified by the Law and one being for those who have been set free and are in the grace of Jesus Christ.

In the context of the Roman passage, I see that in the beginning of chapter 9, Paul is speaking of how he wished that he were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of his brethren his kinsman according to the flesh. And I believe here that he is speaking of those who were of the circumcision. But the promise of God was not to those who were the people of God due to circumcision. The circumcision came first in the design of God (elder son/the circumcised Hebrew nation) but the promise of God was to the younger son (those who would be justified through grace/faith to include Jews of the flesh and Gentiles. It wasn't the circumcision of the flesh that made someone of the household of God but it was those who were in Christ. And according to vs. 15, God has mercy on whom He will and this is that He in His mercy is justifying individuals, believers through grace/faith. These are the vessels of mercy from what I understand. Just as Jacob was a vessel of mercy, believers through faith are vessels of mercy.

I did a study awhile ago on the word that is translated as "hate" in this passage (OT in Malachi=sane) and its range of meanings range from "intense hatred to simple opposition of persons, things, words, ideas." (Hebrew/Greek Key study Bible) I believe that God has shown His opposition to many people, things in the OT but I believe that it serves His purpose in revealing what His intent and goal is. Like you, I don't believe that it is about God hating certain people and loving others. Jesus gave His life for all men, good and evil, so we know that God loves all men. It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself (Col.1)

Thank you again for sharing and I agree in that it can be viewed on the level that you shared, but I don't think the other perspective takes anything away from the nature of the love of God. Thanks also for the spirit in which you posted. God bless.

[spm62]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

I think Kratos has answered satisfactory.

Shana

wrt Predestination or Pretermination, both of which I abhor intensely is based on Romans 9 yet ignores so many other texts showing our responsibility and the exercising of choice.

You have choices but your choices are caused by circumstances that only God controls. God is the only one with absolute total free will,a will that wasn`t caused by anything or anybody else.

With Predestination, in effect, it is "by chance" you are saved as you need to have been one of the elect. This in essence nullifies all choice wrt "getting saved"

It might seem like chance to you or to the limited finite minds of humans
but God is in control of his creation.

Pretermination goes one step further and thus says all is ordained of God in the first place and we really have no say in the matters or affairs of our existence whatsoever. Thus illness, misfortune, good fortune et al is ordained of God and hence we waste our time praying for that to change as it was sent of God.

The bible says all things are of God.


"And ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD…" (II Cor. 5:18).
"For OF HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and TO HIM, are ALL THINGS: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36).
"For it became Him, FOR Whom are all things, and BY Whom are all things…" (Heb. 2:10).
"And He is before ALL things, and by Him ALL things consist" (Col. 1:17).

The way I disprove it is this:

You can`t disprove it

You get ill and believe that God brings this upon you. Even the extreme folk believe we still have some choice to a degree. You can either:

1. Rebuke it. Are you in His will or not?
2. Accept it. Are you in His will or not?
3. Deny God is the Great Physician

You have choices but they are brought about by God`s causes. It is God`s will that shall be done. I think the book of Job answers this question.

Then we can look at another extreme. You are a faithful Christian and do all the best you can, meet all said requirements of church laws, IOW a squeaky clean and righteous Christian. One day your 5 year old daughter is kidnapped, raped and her murdered mutilated corpse found a few days later.

If that is willed of God, what message is He trying to convey to you? Predetermination says all comes from God.

What did God say about this in the book of Job? Once again the bible says all is from God..see above verses. We may not like it or want to accept it but God`s word has to be the final authority whether we like it or not.

This is where it gets tricky.

Nothing tricky about it.

It is from God, thus God can break His own laws of thou shalt not kill and do not commit adultery.

God can do whatever he wants. You don`t understand it because you are a human with a limited mind and cannot understand the ways of God. We are also bound by time and cannot see the beginning from the end like God can.

Well such a God I do not want to serve as He is sicker than most earthly fathers.

Again ,because you don`t understand and are bound by time unlike God. You are trying to have God think and act like a human.

The other extreme side of the same coin is open theism which states our will can upsurp the will of the Father, thus we can choose to disobey Him and catch him by surprise. Thus we are set on a course and every single action we do by choice by 6.7Bn folk is adjusting the space-time continuum every nanosecond.

You cannot catch God by surprise because he is truly sovereign.

That God too I do not want to know as He really seems to have created a monster He cannot control.

Don`t worry..God is in control of his creation. That should be a comforting thought to you.

The truth is found in neither extreme but somewhere inbetween.[

The truth is found in God`s word.

God delegated dominion to us and has never retracted it. I am sure He intervenes as He had to with the Hebrews when they nearly got themselves wiped out a number of times.

You`re sure he intervenes? But only when man misses up God`s plan..right?

There are just too many scrips that show we have choice, we choose to forgive to be forgiven likewise hence we have some free-will.[

Quite the contrary. There are too many verses that show us we don`t have free will. You may make choices but those choices are being caused by God. You may feel in your human reasoning and intelligence that you are making the choices independent of God..but you are not.


"For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23).


"…for without Me, YE [all of you] CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).


"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).


"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [‘obtained’ not ‘earned’] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS [EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).

The problem comes in with traditional beliefs that we who are "saved" are either predestined aka elect or we stumbled on it an chose differently to other folk. Neither are true.

God wills that all men be saved, He sent His Son, He "died" for ALL mankind past, present and future.

For me salvation is a done deal, even viewed from the traditional sense. All are saved already and we who come to the "salvation experience" have a John 6:44 epiphany aka few chosen. The rest do not see it until it to happens to them. I view all this from a perspective of Unconditional Love, the message I believe Jesus taught.

So you believe you are saved and had no say so in the matter? So much for free will.

Many will say yes He is Unconditional but.... No buts. Unconditional means just that, Unconditional. As soon as we make His Love conditional, then His love is no more significant than ours is. He loved us first. He chose us, we did not choose Him.

That I believe is true.

If Jesus said I shall draw all men unto me and we know that one day every knee shall bow to the Glory of the Father, the part we play is sharing the Good News. The good news is that He loves us unconditionally, the bad news is the church hangs a slant on this love with buts.

True again

[Frying Pan]

Now the distressing spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing music with his hand. Then Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he slipped away from Saul’s presence; and he drove the spear into the wall. - I Samuel 19:9-10 Free will?

[spm62]

Originally Posted by Frying Pan

Now the distressing spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing music with his hand. Then Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he slipped away from Saul’s presence; and he drove the spear into the wall. - I Samuel 19:9-10 Free will?

Nope......

[Frying Pan]

Christians have told me I have "free will" and later in the same conversation they will tell me "God has a plan for my life."