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Where was this again. Jesus said a lot of stuff that never make sence. It is usually a lot of double talk.
You know Shibainu, I looked at the verses in the Gospels where this story is told and a few more issues came up as I was reading them side by side. In Mark 4:10-13 (Mark being the oldest biblical Gospel according to many scholars), the story is rather short (many believe that as the legend of Jesus began to grow, the later Gospels began to add more details, some even claiming the Gospel of Matthew "corrected" and/or added to Mark's basic stories). It reads:
But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that
‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, Andtheirsins be forgiven them.’”
And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
He tells his Disciples that they are given the ability to discern his parables, yet they are still lost and he has to go on to explain it to them. What they seem to understand is the clear, straightforward explanation, NOT the parable(s).
In Luke 8:9-10, it reads:
Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’
Then Matthew 11:10-17 we have
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and notperceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their earsare hard of hearing, And their eyes they haveclosed, Lest they should see withtheireyes and hear withtheirears, Lest they should understand withtheirhearts and turn, So that Ishouldheal them.’
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
It appears to me here that what is being said is that the Jews were being willful and refused to hear the message Jesus was bringing to them and as a result, they forfeited their opportunity to hear and understand the words of Jesus which, inexplicably, are not straightforward, but spoken in symbolism which when you think of it, none of us would have understood either.
Since I am aware the New Testament writers (notably Matthew) took some serious liberties when claiming New Testament events were fulfillments of alleged Old Testament prophecies, I went back to check on this one found in Isaiah chapter 6. The passage in Isaiah gives the impression that the people are purposely blinded to "truth" because God ultimately wants to teach them a lesson. Again, this idea emerges, as with Pharaoh, that God stacks the deck against some so that we have a villain in every story to highlight the hero, the chosen, the special ones, the ultimate message.
You know Shibainu, I looked at the verses in the Gospels where this story is told and a few more issues came up as I was reading them side by side. In Mark 4:10-13 (Mark being the oldest biblical Gospel according to many scholars), the story is rather short (many believe that as the legend of Jesus began to grow, the later Gospels began to add more details, some even claiming the Gospel of Matthew "corrected" and/or added to Mark's basic stories). It reads:
But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that
‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, Andtheirsins be forgiven them.’”
And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
He tells his Disciples that they are given the ability to discern his parables, yet they are still lost and he has to go on to explain it to them. What they seem to understand is the clear, straightforward explanation, NOT the parable(s).
In Luke 8:9-10, it reads:
Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’
Then Matthew 11:10-17 we have
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and notperceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their earsare hard of hearing, And their eyes they haveclosed, Lest they should see withtheireyes and hear withtheirears, Lest they should understand withtheirhearts and turn, So that Ishouldheal them.’
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
It appears to me here that what is being said is that the Jews were being willful and refused to hear the message Jesus was bringing to them and as a result, they forfeited their opportunity to hear and understand the words of Jesus which, inexplicably, are not straightforward, but spoken in symbolism which when you think of it, none of us would have understood either.
Since I am aware the New Testament writers (notably Matthew) took some serious liberties when claiming New Testament events were fulfillments of alleged Old Testament prophecies, I went back to check on this one found in Isaiah chapter 6. The passage in Isaiah gives the impression that the people are purposely blinded to "truth" because God ultimately wants to teach them a lesson. Again, this idea emerges, as with Pharaoh, that God stacks the deck against some so that we have a villain in every story to highlight the hero, the chosen, the special ones, the ultimate message.
Oh, I forgot to add that the passages above all claim to fulfill Isaiah 6, but even then there is yet another problem IF the Disciples had a V8 moment after the holy spirit slapped them upside their heads. In Isaiah 6 the prophet asks how long will the people be deaf and blinded to the truth. He is told that it will last up to the time when their worst fears are realized, that being, their land wasted and people decimated, something that did not happen by the time of that Pentecost.
My guess would be the prophet had the Assyrians in mind, as they ere contemporary to his day. Others would say he was predicting the growing threat of Babylon, but I can also see others, seeing the problem the New Testament claim of fulfillment will be, would claim that Isaiah was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in A.D 70 or the start of the Jewish diaspora when Hadrian, sick of their nonsense, exiled and banished Jews from Judea.
TwentyFourSeven: All of these issues are spiritually discerned. Are you born again? Do you possess the mind of Christ and the aid of the Holy Spirit to understand the things you seem to be ridiculing?
Preterist
No he's not. He's a self professing atheist Moderator cut: personal remarks
He's one of those (By his own words) who was totally involved with church, grew up in the church etc then "got smart" and walked away.
Moderator cut: personal remarks
So that's who he is.
BTW - Good posts!
Last edited by Alpha8207; 01-24-2008 at 08:17 PM..
24/7... Did God harden your heart? I ask, because you sound very bitter.
In this thread? Where?
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