Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
24/7........This is an outstanding question.... and actually it is a question that arises from either a "mature understanding" or from a "arrogant misunderstanding". Let me explain.... but either way... Romans addresses the truth.
Mature understanding accepts, without reservation, the "sovereignty of God".... not to over simplify, but this is basically what we are dealing with in Romans 9. So the first premise becomes; Is God Sovereign? From here our understanding is built upon. A everyday example would be learning to add before we do Calculus.... and as such, each of us develop "our" understanding upon what we have previously learned and "accepted". No one could do Calculus if they would not accept; 2+2=4. In addition... Not everyone is capable of doing math like Einstein... we all are given a level "understanding" by God.
So if we accept the sovereignty of God... then we can move forward to examine the "divine elect".
Man's understanding would elevate his own sovereignty and become the judge of God... and example of this would be "how can a loving God create someone to just perish". In Romans .... Paul asks the first question vs 14 and uses "we" meaning mature Christians, and later in vs 19 is asked by another... and rebukes the arrogance. Paul does not answer the question forthright, Instead he takes the questioner on a deviation of sorts.... but does answer later in Romans.
So... before we go on
1)...... Do you accept the sovereignty of God?
then the next question will have to be answered according to the first
2).... Does divine election make God unjust?
can we continue?
Sure Dave! Go on. I've done this breakdown before (at least what you have so far), but I want to her your confusion...um, conclusion. LOL Could not resist, but please carry on.
Sure Dave! Go on. I've done this breakdown before (at least what you have so far), but I want to her your confusion...um, conclusion. LOL Could not resist, but please carry on.
Ok..... but I need to know how to move forward based on how you answer.
Quote:
Dave_n_Tenn said:
So... before we go on
1)...... Do you accept the sovereignty of God?
then the next question will have to be answered according to the first
These statements might not be satisfying to human reason but they are statements based on what Scripture clearly teaches. Since we dare not draw apparently logical conclusions which the Scriptures do not allow, we take our reason captive to God’s Word (2 Corinthians 10:5)
"How unsearchable are his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-36).
Human reason has problems with the question why some are saved and not others. Human reason has trouble reconciling God's love for the whole world and his universal atonement with the particular predestination of some to salvation.
Calvin tried to solve the problem by drawing a conclusion that is logical according to human reason but which contradicts the Scriptures. He correctly says that those who are finally saved have been predestined by God for salvation, but he incorrectly concludes that those who are lost have been predestined by God to damnation.
According to the Bible, if we are saved it is all to the credit of our God and his grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:10-28, Romans 8:29-30). If we are lost it is all our own fault (John 3:16-18, Romans 6:23a, Romans 1:18-23, Matthew 23:37).
Calvin's teaching makes good logical sense but is not taught in Scripture. Predestination or election is used only of believers (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-7). Predestination pertains to salvation not damnation. For the Bible also tells us that "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4).
The Bible says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).
Ezekiel writes, "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11).
Calvinism teaches limited atonement, that is, Jesus died only for the elect. However, the Bible teaches,
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
John the Baptist pointed at Jesus and declared, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29)
Paul writes, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19).
To teach limited atonement is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.
To say that God not only wants some people to be damned but actually predestines them to damnation is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[b] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
This is supposed be into respond of Exodus 33:19,Exodus 9:16,Isaiah 29:16; 45:9
Exodus 33:19
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Exodus 9:16
16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
isaiah 29:
16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?
Paul uses Exodus 9 to justify a harden heart. Please show me where God gave Pharaoh a hearden heart :
The Plague of Hail
13 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. 19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.' "
20 Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. 21 But those who ignored the word of the LORD left their slaves and livestock in the field.
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt—on men and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt." 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt; 24 hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. 25 Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields—both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. 26 The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.
27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. 28 Pray to the LORD, for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer."
29 Moses replied, "When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in prayer to the LORD. The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is the LORD's. 30 But I know that you and your officials still do not fear the LORD God."
31 (The flax and barley were destroyed, since the barley had headed and the flax was in bloom. 32 The wheat and spelt, however, were not destroyed, because they ripen later.)
33 Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the LORD; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. 34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.
God never gave them a harden heart. They choose not listen and they learned they sinned against god which caused the Harden heart.God gave them a choice to follow what he commanded
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[b] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
This is supposed be into respond of Exodus 33:19,Exodus 9:16,Isaiah 29:16; 45:9
Exodus 33:19
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Exodus 9:16
16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
isaiah 29:
16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?
Paul uses Exodus 9 to justify a harden heart. Please show me where God gave Pharaoh a hearden heart :
The Plague of Hail
13 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. 19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.' "
20 Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. 21 But those who ignored the word of the LORD left their slaves and livestock in the field.
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt—on men and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt." 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt; 24 hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. 25 Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields—both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. 26 The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.
27 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. 28 Pray to the LORD, for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer."
29 Moses replied, "When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in prayer to the LORD. The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is the LORD's. 30 But I know that you and your officials still do not fear the LORD God."
31 (The flax and barley were destroyed, since the barley had headed and the flax was in bloom. 32 The wheat and spelt, however, were not destroyed, because they ripen later.)
33 Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the LORD; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. 34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.
God never gave them a harden heart. They choose not listen and they learned they sinned against god which caused the Harden heart.God gave them a choice to follow what he commanded
I understand that Shaibinu, but you see, within the context of the passage, Pharaoh's actions would be seen as pre-determined. He was "raised up" for the one purpose of defying God so that God could show off his magic tricks.
Maybe it's me... maybe I'm not asking in a way you understand. Let me ask again. I reduced the questions to just one. This is not about judgement... and I promise to be gentle.
Do you accept the sovereignty of God? (is a third time the charm?)
I understand that Shaibinu, but you see, within the context of the passage, Pharaoh's actions would be seen as pre-determined. He was "raised up" for the one purpose of defying God so that God could show off his magic tricks.
ok I found the verse:
KJV
12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
NIV
12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
exodus 9 tanakh jps
12 And HaShem hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as HaShem had spoken unto Moses. 13 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him: Thus saith HaShem, the G-d of the Hebrews: Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Torah
12. But Moses spoke before the Lord, saying, "Behold, the children of Israel did not hearken to me. How then will Pharaoh hearken to me, seeing that I am of closed lips?"
12. closed lips. Heb. עִרַל שְׂפָתָיִם, Literally, of “closed” lips. Similarly, every expression of (עָרְלָה) I say, denotes a closure: e.g., “their ear is clogged (עִרֵלָה) ” (Jer. 6:10), [meaning] clogged to prevent hearing; “of uncircumcised (עַרְלֵי) hearts” (Jer. 9:25), [meaning] clogged to prevent understanding; “You too drink and become clogged up (וְהֵעָרֵל) ” (Hab. 2:16), [which means] and become clogged up from the intoxication of the cup of the curse; עָרְלַתבָּשָָׂר, the foreskin of the flesh, by which the male membrum is closed up and covered; “and you shall treat its fruit as forbidden (וְעִרַלְךְתֶּם עָרְלָתוֹ) ” (Lev. 19:23), [i. e.,] make for it a closure and a covering of prohibition, which will create a barrier that will prevent you from eating it. “For three years, it shall be closed up [forbidden] (עִרֵלִים) for you” (Lev. 19:23), [i.e.,] closed up, covered, and separated from eating it. How then will Pharaoh hearken to me. This is one of the ten kal vachomer inferences mentioned in the Torah. — [from Gen. Rabbah 92:7] [I.e., inferences from major to minor, such as in this case. I.e., if, because of my speech impediment, the children of Israel, who have everything to gain by listening to me, did not listen to me, Pharaoh, who has everything to lose by listening to me, will surely not listen to me.] Chumash with Rashi - Va'eira - Parshah
I think there is a big difference from what the torah is saying then the other versions. Moses is saying that the people will not listening to me so how is Pharoh going to listen.I(moses) have a hard time speaking to the people that they will understand what I am trying to say.
Torah
exodus 9
33. Moses went away from Pharaoh, out of the city, and he spread out his hands to the Lord, and the thunder and the hail ceased, and rain did not come down to earth. 34. And Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased; so he continued to sin, and he strengthened his heart, he and his servants. 35. And the Lord made Pharaoh's heart strong, and he did not let the children of Israel go out, as the Lord had spoken through the hand of Moses.
So my theory is that God harden his heart after the Fact not before.
Maybe it's me... maybe I'm not asking in a way you understand. Let me ask again. I reduced the questions to just one. This is not about judgement... and I promise to be gentle.
Do you accept the sovereignty of God? (is a third time the charm?)
Nope. I've got issues. lol
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
