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I consider it greater sin to accuse a person or population of any crime of misdeed without proper evidence. These people are not guilty of anything based solely on an accusation. It has already been pointed out that there were no surviving witnesses of the events claimed. Other than the sinful two daughters and a drunken old man. I'd like to know how he managed to produce so much wine in a such a short period when his priority would have been providing food?
to so many populations alcohol was the easist to produce sourse of energy.
it is how early American made it.. corn whiskey.. any grains.. rotten fruits.. and you had a something your body could use.
hwne I wa sin jail I asked by they didn't give us any fruit or some salad vegies.. and man the food was aweful..
they told me that can't give the ladies or gentlemen such things and foods or some sweets even candies ...bevcause they would make quick alcohol out of it..
so here again you are calling the Bible wrong because there is things you guys don't understand about real life and or life back then...
let assume it is right because it is right... there is no reason to lie.. one in the story has a rerason to lie.. there is no reason to change the words.. either...
there has always been perversion in all forms of sexuality.. and usually it was for sale..
and there is no reason to pretend it doesn't exist..
except in a society who wants to make the profane holy..
and the profane will never be holy..
Methinks that you, and, it would seem, the majority of Christendom, are taking this story - emphasis on 'story' - much too seriously. Moreover, to use this weird tale as an instruction to condemn homosexual people and to preach this form of crud from behind a pulpit is borderline insanity and should be made a criminal offense.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Typical.
That I attempt to look at things biblically from a hermeneutical, cultural, read-between-the-lines, cultural, religious superstition, logical, etc. perspective? Agreed.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Don't like something in the Bible?
Where did I say that I don't like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? It's a lovely story. I don't believe that it's true but, if it is true, it has a lot of silly people in it doing lots of silly things that should probably be way beneath our intelligence to give it too much of our time . . .so says the guy who started the thread and continues to participate . . .
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Just write it off as a story, or not relevant, and ignore it.
Just what IS the relevance of the Sodom and Gomorrah story, BF? Please explain.
to so many populations alcohol was the easist to produce sourse of energy.
it is how early American made it.. corn whiskey.. any grains.. rotten fruits.. and you had a something your body could use.
hwne I wa sin jail I asked by they didn't give us any fruit or some salad vegies.. and man the food was aweful..
they told me that can't give the ladies or gentlemen such things and foods or some sweets even candies ...bevcause they would make quick alcohol out of it..
so here again you are calling the Bible wrong because there is things you guys don't understand about real life and or life back then...
let assume it is right because it is right... there is no reason to lie.. one in the story has a rerason to lie.. there is no reason to change the words.. either...
there has always been perversion in all forms of sexuality.. and usually it was for sale..
and there is no reason to pretend it doesn't exist..
except in a society who wants to make the profane holy..
and the profane will never be holy..
But is says he got drunk on wine. He would have had to cultivate the vines, then harvest the grapes then make the wine which takes a while. All this while he is supposed to be cultivating food. See what I mean?
What were you in jail for if I may ask? Don't answer if you don't want to - I don't have to know (and nor does the world).
Methinks that you, and, it would seem, the majority of Christendom, are taking this story - emphasis on 'story' - much too seriously. Moreover, to use this weird tale as an instruction to condemn homosexual people and to preach this form of crud from behind a pulpit is borderline insanity and should be made a criminal offense.
Nah, I think they were too honorable to be taken in by the offer to 'have' the two virgin girls. The real sinner was the one offering his two virgin daughters to the crowd! Apparently, lying was considered righteous since it turned out Lot was lying about them - they were married! Which makes his sin even worse since he was not only offering his 'virgin' daughters to the crowd but he was offering some elses' wives!
We don't know what Lot's true intentions were. He could have just been bluffing the crowd to buy some time for everyone to escape.
What do you call all the men and boys in town beating on Lot's door to have him give him the angels to have sex with them outside of gang rape? What do you mean there is no evidence?
Why would God decide to judge the city before the gang rape took place then? And n even BIGGER problem for you is 2 Peter 2:7-8 which says before these events, Lot was greatly distressed by the gang rape, oh no wait, it doesn't say gang rape. It says SENSUAL CONDUCT of the wicked. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call rape being sensual. Sensual implies sexual consensual lust for each other. It sounds clearly to me that the men were having so much mutually desired sex with each other that they just craved any new flesh that came to town. Like animals.
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Again, if your takeaway from this story is a wholesale condemnation of homosexuality then you approve gang rape (and let's now add pedophilia thanks to our brother's contribution). If you aren't abhorred by gang rape and pedophilia but solely focus on the genders involved, then you are pro gang rape and pedophilia if it is a heterosexual thing.
Why doesn't that make sense to you? It is as logical as can be.
My takeaway is that God was very displeased with man disobeying His laws and design for sex. Same sex activity is a mockery of something beautiful and perfect that God created and very sad that you defend it so passionately. Gang rape and pedophillia are completely irrelevant to this point.
Well, here's some points to ponder on the subject.......
Jer. 23:14 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: THEY COMMIT ADULTERY, AND WALK IN LIES: THEY STRENGTHEN ALSO THE HANDS OF EVILDOERS, THAT NONE DOTH RETURN FROM HIS WICKEDNESS: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
Sound like anyone you know? By the way, adultery is not just committed by the genders, our soul is as a female meant to be faithful and impregnated by the Spirit of G-d, and when we join ourselves to that which is not like Him it is the same as adultery, and the seeds we received from that which we have joined ourselves to, those seeds also reproduce.
Ok, let's talk about the REAL meaning behind the hospitality. Do you REALLY think that He gets all bent out of shape over you not offering a shady tent to a stranger? It's a LESSER offense than the reality behind it, remembering that EVERYTHING has a spiritual ROOT, not just a fruit you can readily spot. We have to go to Acts 17 to see the spiritual ROOT....
Now what you need to see here is that the men of Mars Hill were only interested in telling or hearing some new thing, they spent their time in NOTHING ELSE. They were not interested in being both a hearer and a doer (of the Word), they only wanted it to tickle their ears (APPEAL TO THE FLESH/Sodom, never going beyond the outside of the ear to penetrate down into the heart), appeal to their INTELLECTUAL (mind/Gomorrah) curiosity. Notice also that is says these men, were WHOLLY GIVEN OVER TO IDOLATRY.
G-d FORBID it should be something with the LIFE of the Spirit in it by which they would be forever changed from the INSIDE OUT, that would be ENGRAFTED into their heart/virgin soul, ie. BE ONE WITH IN A FRUITFUL UNION capable of reproducing the nature of the pattern Son: no, they would prefer it be a UNION INCAPABLE OF PRODUCING NEW LIFE. Flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets Spirit'; it's the law of the seed which cannot be broken = all seeds reproduce after their own kind.
An unfruitful union is exactly what happens when people only like to hear the sermonettes in the churches or elsewhere, but refuse to let the Word IMPREGNATE their heart/soul with the SEED of the Word, which is His Spirit. He said we (flesh) must decrease, so that He (Spirit) can increase.
A couple of you have asked me what measuring stick I use (hopefully for your sake's with a pure motive) and I told you. Well, here's another sure fire way to tell if you're being taught of the right spirit. Did the word or principle bring death to the flesh of you in some way, while AT THE SAME TIME (double edged sword), bring more life (freedom from the bondage engender by the flesh) to your spirit? Did it make you have to submit to decreasing in repentance? Because Satan has no interest in you decreasing to the flesh kingdom, only preferring that you increase because the more you do, the more dust he has to consume and he loves to go to and fro in your earth.
We see the truth of this with Lot and his family who were spared, because they not only took in (TO THEIR ABODE/HEART) the angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), they believed the Word (faith) given to them, and ACTED (works) upon it. And so we see that faith without works is DEAD, as is works without faith. Be ye a doer of the Word, not just a hearer only.
See, there are virgins that are virgins because they've kept themselves clean with each new revelation being unfolded and embraced wholeheartedly with repentance, and there are virgins that are virgins because they refused to allow themselves to be touched by the Spirit of the Word. Two guesses which one He's returning for, and the first guess doesn't count.
Remember the fig tree that doesn't produce fruit is CURSED and nigh unto BURNING, which is what Sodom means. Sodom and Gomorrah, our flesh and our mind, become a giant BURNT OFFERING, salted with fire, when we refuse to submit to the authority of the Spirit of G-d and His Word. This is the judgment with fire that the Word refers to, but that's for another subject and another day.
What you clearly don't comprehend is the Word is SPIRIT, written to our spirit, with the intent and pure motive of PRODUCING A SON AND HEIR. Who shall declare (means to show openly as opposed to VEILED) His generation? Father wants GRANDCHILDREN, get it?
And since He will not give His glory unto another IMAGE, any corrupt doctrine that falls short of the PERFECT IMAGE of the PATTERN SON which was MADE FROM THE WORD, mars that image, and like the pot that it is, must be broken and thrown on the scrap heap. As for the carnal mind, you still have not figured out that it is your enemy; the VERY BEST it can ever be is a servant to His Spirit, and left to it's unbridled reign, is what corrupts the Word that is Spirit. Which is why we are told to bring EVERY THOUGHT into captivity to the mind of Christ.
Think about it. Satan corrupted the Word that was spoken, Eve, a type of the virgin soul received it and accepted it and took it into herself and what happened? It brought death to the hearer instead of life. The same thing happens when you rely on your carnal mind to teach you the things that are IN AND OF the Spirit. IT HAS NEVER BEEN THERE SO HOW CAN IT TEACH YOU FROM A PLACE IT'S NEVER BEEN?
So point being, whether or not the physical sin is committed or not, if the spiritual precept is committed by the flesh of ANYONE, which includes their HEART, the price is the same. Which is why I have been steadfastly saying, that the heart of the priesthood (those that have received the baptism in His Spirit which IS the anointing required to serve as a priest) must ALSO be cleansed of the ROOT, and not just those busying themselves with the works of the FRUIT that is visible to everyone.
The principle being, that the body (those in the outer court=everyone NOT baptized into His Spirit) can only do what it "sees" (in the spirit, the soul is a spirit, too) it's head (those in inner court priesthood, baptized in His Spirit, set apart by outward anointing for service) do. The priesthood, by baptism of the Spirit, was baptized into being one with the Head, who is SPIRIT.
Which is why, hate and murder, for instance, are the same sin. One is the root (hate in the heart of priesthood), the other is the fruit (openly manifested by those in the outer court). So when they SEE you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, they go out and murder theirs.
See, He's not only interested in the outside of the cup (all of mankind's VISIBLE works) being cleaned up, He's making sure the inside of the cup (all of the priesthood's hearts) be cleansed as well. So that in the day of judgment which is coming swiftly, NONE WILL HAVE AN EXCUSE, because the WHOLE BODY, gets cast into the fire.
And I don't blame you, either. It's not your fault that 95% of Christendom has NO CLUE what the message is, who it is to, and what it means, much less what it means to them PERSONALLY, other than a list of dos and don'ts, mostly don'ts. Again, this comes from refusing to make all things according to the pattern shown Moses in the mount, and refusing to use both the level (Word) and the plumbline (Spirit), instead leaning on the carnal minds of men to teach them. These 2 days/2000 years were the in-part realm, it could be no other way but a sifting for what is to come. He, on the other hand, has life to give and life more abundantly.
I agree. Is that a first? Just one minor slip, however. God had already 'judged' the city. He 'planned' to destroy it ...babies, children, animals, crops, and all. Why? Because they were all wicked.
To the visitor to this site and possibly someone who might not be familiar with the Bible, the above ^^^ piece of anti-gay rhetoric comes from nowhere else but from the mind of the poster named jeffbase40. Believe me, there is no biblical chapter or verse referencing Sodom and Gomorrah that provides evidence for such a statement AT ALL! NOWHERE in scripture is there a link to Sodom and Gomorrah and homosexuality. This is nothing more that religious propaganda ...a LIE of such great magnitude preached from the pulpits of Christian churches that has had their mindless congregations swallowing it, hook, line and sinker, for decades. And, they continue to swallow it to this very day!
However, Mr/Mrs/Miss Visitor, you don't have to take my word for it. If you have a Bible and have the ability to read - unlike many Christians, it would seem - you will see for yourself that I speak the truth! All one has to do is TO READ!
While it would appear that Lot wasn't the sharpest tool in the pack, one might consider that Lot WAS familiar with the culture of the people of Sodom and would have known that homosexual men would not have been interested in his daughters. So, why offer them up to disinterested men to begin with? What is also being (conveniently) ignored is that these alleged homosexual men brought their wives and children along to this (unlikely) orgy.
That's probably for another topic, Jeff. My only concern here is to discuss Sodom and Gomorrah from a Bible perspective as well as to counter the lies that have been preached from the pulpit about their supposed connection to homosexuality. Even when facts are presented and rumors dispelled, you and yours still continue with the lies ...a glaring affront to the very Jesus you claim to follow.
Why would God decide to judge the city before the gang rape took place then?
Jeff. Seriously. Is your reading comprehension this shallow? I don't mean to be ugly but I cannot fathom how you can read the whole of the story and not get a time continuum established. In Genesis chapter 17 God visits Abraham and lets him know of his plan to destroy the city. We see Abraham negotiate with God on saving the innocent people, narrows it down from 50 to just 10 and God will spare the city. At this point there is no mention of the type of wickedness taking place, just God's judgement on them being exceedingly wicked.
It isn't until chapter 18 and the visit of the angels to Lot's home that we get a picture into the type of evil going on. A large group of men descends on Lot's house and demands Lot hand over the angels to have sex with them. That is sensual. Neither Lot or the angels are interested in this so they refuse the request. The men then demand it and threaten to break down the door and give it to Lot too.
Bear in mind the other references to the story elsewhere in the bible. Others have mentioned the women of Sodom and Gomorrah and their inhospitality. Proves that this one story isn't the only thing the cities were judged for.
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And n even BIGGER problem for you is 2 Peter 2:7-8 which says before these events, Lot was greatly distressed by the gang rape, oh no wait, it doesn't say gang rape. It says SENSUAL CONDUCT of the wicked. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call rape being sensual. Sensual implies sexual consensual lust for each other. It sounds clearly to me that the men were having so much mutually desired sex with each other that they just craved any new flesh that came to town. Like animals.
Do you not understand the difference in SENSUAL and CONSENSUAL? Do you not understand that some sensuality is involved in rape? And what do you mean it doesn't say gang rape? A large group of men were demanding to break in and have sex with not only the angels but Lot too. Multiple men, non-consensual sex. that is gang rape. Does the bible have to use the words "gang rape" for you to get that? Why parse this sensual conduct out of the gang rape? They are the same thing.
You might draw the conclusion that the men were having a lot of gay sex and craved the new guys in town, but scripture does not say that. They certainly weren't men with a gay orientation as Romulus has pointed out. Where are the kids in town coming from?
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My takeaway is that God was very displeased with man disobeying His laws and design for sex. Same sex activity is a mockery of something beautiful and perfect that God created and very sad that you defend it so passionately. Gang rape and pedophillia are completely irrelevant to this point.
Again, if that is your takeaway, you are perfectly fine with gang rape and pedophilia as long as it isn't of a homosexual nature. You are really twisted sir. Your homophobia has clouded your ability to read the scripture for what it is, to the point that you are not making sane comments.
The tragedy in your line of thinking and in others like you that represent the church (Westboro Baptist and you have a lot in common) is that men and women that God created and who for reasons still not certain, have an orientation that has them sexually attracted to their same gender, are harmed by your ilk. They aren't going in mob groups, threatening to break into homes and rape people. Nothing close. Yet you tell them that God thinks this of them, are equal to this form of evil. They turn from seeking God and knowing his love and peace and eternal life because of you and this sick mindset. It is ugly, it is not in the heart of God, is not what Jesus taught at all, but you continue to defend it tooth and nail.
I am here to combat that evil philosophy that cloaks itself in bible verses and acts as if it is holy and the heart of God. IT IS NOT!!!
Last edited by Saintmarks; 09-13-2019 at 08:40 AM..
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I don't believe that it's true but, if it is true, it has a lot of silly people in it doing lots of silly things that should probably be way beneath our intelligence to give it too much of our time . . .so says the guy who started the thread and continues to participate . . .
