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I am an expert of the absurdity of many biblical stories. Especially in the OT. Like when God helped ol' Elijah murder a couple dozen youths just because they teased him about being bald.
Has there ever been a more loathsome character in all of Fiction than Yahweh? I ask you. A petty, jealous, vindictive and malevolent bully. A mass-murder, ethnic cleanser, and child-killer (see: The Passover!) of the first order. Makes Hitler and Stalin and Pot look like choir boys.
Yes, I was aware of the irony in your post but I wasn't sure where it began and where it ended. I do agree with you (how can one not?) with regard to the Old Testament God. I've never been able to use logic and reason to understand the atrocities committed by the God of the Torah. And, I'm also at a loss as to how so many Christians either turn a blind eye or otherwise make up excuses for the hideous actions of the OT God.
Yes, I was aware of the irony in your post but I wasn't sure where it began and where it ended. I do agree with you (how can one not?) with regard to the Old Testament God. I've never been able to use logic and reason to understand the atrocities committed by the God of the Torah. And, I'm also at a loss as to how so many Christians either turn a blind eye or otherwise make up excuses for the hideous actions of the OT God.
Most Christians cherry pick from the Bible, these stories they like and they don't, or the ones they think are true or are allegorical.
Except for that especially curious breed called the Fundamentlists. They try to tell you the hidden meaning behind the seeming atrocity that Yahweh did. Or they try to justify it. Although I have never heard one Fundie do this to any degree of satisfactory or plausbile answer.
They are really quite amusing, these fundies. Their alleged explanations for why, say, God would harden the Pharoh's heart needlessly, just so he could inflict more punishment on his people and the children, instead of just getting him to free the Hebrews after the first plague, are hilarious.
Or how they justify what God did to Job...just to win a bet with ol' Lucifer.
The point that is being made is that it is not homosexual behavior in itself that is being, but the vicious and derogatory use of same sex activity.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Which doesn't fit with Jude 7 which mentions "strange flesh" as their sin. "Strange flesh" can be translated to unnatural desires which certainly fits with other verses that describe homosexuality as unnatural.
Jude is another example of scripture that has been constructed conveniently to tie in with the anti-gay agenda ...even though, YET AGAIN, there is no clear description of homosexuality in the text. "Strange flesh"="homosexuality"? Really? Only in the anti-gay Christian imagination!
Jude contradicts or at least ignores the descriptions of both Ezekiel (Ezekiel 16:49) and Jesus (Matthew 10:14-15) as to why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. It's most interesting, in fact, to note that it's ALWAYS the Jude passage that is mentioned by the anti-gay Christians ...NEVER the quote made by Jesus and hardly ever the explanation given by Ezekiel.*
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Also, you have 2 Peter 2:7-8 which mentions the "sensual conduct of the wicked" that greatly distressed Lot.
Yes. apparently so. In fact, Lot was SO distressed that he offered up his daughters to be raped! And, later in the continuing saga he feigned drunkenness (just my opinion) to allow his daughters to have sex with him. But then, his usual sexual partner was now useful only to flavor his fries.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
There is no question that sexual immorality was involved here.
In more ways than one ...!
*Ezekiel DOES mention what might be the favorite term of the anti-gay Christian ..."abominations".
Thanks for the additional info. You know, while we have been and ARE bombarded with the claim by religious leaders that S&G were destroyed because of their wicked homosexual behavior they always come to a full stop at the destruction of the cities. I've never yet heard a sermon preached about 'the rape' of Lot by his daughters! Funny that. And so, we never get to hear about the rest of the story as you offer above. The reason? The 'men and the angels' part of Sodom and Gomorrah is ALL THAT IS REQUIRED of the story for Christian zealots to condemn homosexuality. And THAT appears to be their ONLY interest in the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah!
Not only to condemn homosexuality, but also to justify the political movement to criminalize it. Scaring the congregation into thinking a nation that tolerates homosexuals will be destroyed by fire and brimstone is a good way to mobilize the voters.
The conservative Christian narrative that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for tolerating consensual homosexuality is not found in the text. There are some generic references that can infer that like "abominations" in Ezekiel and "strange flesh" in Jude but anybody reading the text for the first time, without any pre-concieved biases, would be unlikely to jump to homosexuality as being the core focus of the story. Other sins like pride and inhospitality ARE explicitly spelled out however, yet you very rarely hear sermons on Sodom & Gomorrah dealing with anything other than homosexuality (and America).
If the Bible really is the infallible, inerrant Word of God, and homosexuality is indeed an exceptional sin in which the mere tolerance of it warrants God's complete eradication of a nation, AND if Sodom and Gomorrah is the primary passage He gave us to warn us of that fact, shouldn't the text be a little less ambiguous about it?
Not only to condemn homosexuality, but also to justify the political movement to criminalize it. Scaring the congregation into thinking a nation that tolerates homosexuals will be destroyed by fire and brimstone is a good way to mobilize the voters.
The conservative Christian narrative that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for tolerating consensual homosexuality is not found in the text. There are some generic references that can infer that like "abominations" in Ezekiel and "strange flesh" in Jude but anybody reading the text for the first time, without any pre-concieved biases, would be unlikely to jump to homosexuality as being the core focus of the story. Other sins like pride and inhospitality ARE explicitly spelled out however, yet you very rarely hear sermons on Sodom & Gomorrah dealing with anything other than homosexuality (and America).
If the Bible really is the infallible, inerrant Word of God, and homosexuality is indeed an exceptional sin in which the mere tolerance of it warrants God's complete eradication of a nation, AND if Sodom and Gomorrah is the primary passage He gave us to warn us of that fact, shouldn't the text be a little less ambiguous about it?
You hardly hear any sermons on Sodom and Gomorrah at all in the Church.
Jud_1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution,
and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
"coming away after other flesh" tells me that the men went after other men.
Most with no insight or true knowledge of God, judge God for taking the wicked parents childrens lives as well. The wicked parents would have handed down the wicked acts to their own children, this is satans #1 tool throughout mankinds history. So now at judgement time the reality is--all those children were spared living totally wicked lives and receiving a negative judgement, instead will be allowed to enter Gods kingdom, to learn and apply the will of God after the resurrection occurs--during this period-no satan influences on the earth. thus could receive life everlasting in gods kingdom. If God let them live they too would have handed down wicked acts to their children, a never ending scenario. God always chooses right.
Jud_1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution,
and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
"coming away after other flesh" tells me that the men went after other men.
In other words, it tells you what you want to believe.
Because "other flesh" could mean a dog, sheep, overripe melon, warm apple pie or a thousand other things.
But to YOU and other fundies, it's gotta mean men.
Wonder why that is...?
Just kidding! I know exactly why that is.
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And, later in the continuing saga he feigned drunkenness (just my opinion) to allow his daughters to have sex with him. But then, his usual sexual partner was now useful only to flavor his fries.
