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2ndpillar, what is it about the holdings of the church that bothers you so much? Yes, the Catholic Church is an ANCIENT and holy institution that dates back to the times of Christ, it is older than most countries, and yes the church is financially fortunate in many aspects, after all it is one of the oldest and largest religions in the world, what's wrong this this?.. St. Peters BASILICA is more than a Cathedral, it was built on the very grave site of ST. PETER THE APOSTLE, it is a SACRED site, how could you possibly imply that such history be tampered with simply for monetary gain? The words that you speak indicate that you know very little about the Catholic Church and the incredible amount of sacred history that is secured at The Vatican.
As far as your comment about the White House, please tell me you are not serious.. You imply that the White House should be SOLD???!!!!!! Come on..
Can't rep you more. The Church is 2,000 years old. One would think they would have treasures given to them by this time. Our country is only a little over 200 years old and see how much we have.
Instead of gripping about the Church's wealth people should look at our government buildings. They look like Roman orgies of excess and our tax dollars pay for it. Our legislatures don't need to be surrounded with marble buildings. At least the Churches are reverencing the Lord with beautiful objects, what are we reverencing with our capital buildings? I am glad the WH has stayed relatively plain and small.
Dear lady you are doing it again. It is pretty much pointing to the timber beam in someone else's eye to distract attention from the one in your own - or that of the vatican.
And the treasures being for the glory of God? reminds me of Mr. Dollar's projected Learjet for the work of God. Hypocrisy, dear lady. And goverment offices may be massive and opulent, but they are not crammed with treasures bought with public money.
Ok. So the Popes were just like other rulers in building palaces, collecting artworks. and now some of them are on show to the public. I can live with them as a relic of the past and even a symbol of national pride - within reason.
But that is the reason why religious authority figures are wrong. because they cut across nation -statees and divide loyalties. It is fine when a state has also a state religion, but when it doesn't and especially when the head of a religion rolls up and starts interfering in the affairs of another state, it is time to tell him to sling his hook.
Dear lady you are doing it again. It is pretty much pointing to the timber beam in someone else's eye to distract attention from the one in your own - or that of the vatican.
And the treasures being for the glory of God? reminds me of Mr. Dollar's projected Learjet for the work of God. Hypocrisy, dear lady. And goverment offices may be massive and opulent, but they are not crammed with treasures bought with public money.
Ok. So the Popes were just like other rulers in building palaces, collecting artworks. and now some of them are on show to the public. I can live with them as a relic of the past and even a symbol of national pride - within reason.
But that is the reason why religious authority figures are wrong. because they cut across nation -statees and divide loyalties. It is fine when a state has also a state religion, but when it doesn't and especially when the head of a religion rolls up and starts interfering in the affairs of another state, it is time to tell him to sling his hook.
I am not sure who you are speaking to or calling a "lady", I assume you are referring to the previous poster. You bring the same questions that have already been answered previously. Please see my statement above.
I am not sure who you are speaking to or calling a "lady", I assume you are referring to the previous poster. You bring the same questions that have already been answered previously. Please see my statement above.
Of course i was responding to the post above mine and the post (which evidently you didn't read) was a response to her point about excusing the Vatican of being filthy rich by pointing to how much it costs to build offices.
As to your post, however, the claims about the catholic church being traceable back to the 1st century and the bones of Peter as 1st Pope are very dubious.
I will give my view, for what it's worth. The Catholic church traces its ancestry to the Roman Imperial cult. The very word 'basilica' refers to an Imperial palace. Popes effectively didn't start until after Constantine's time when the 'Bishop of Rome' began putting pressure on the emperor to suppress all religions other than Christianity.
There may have been bishops of the roman Christians as there were of the others, but i am damn' sure Pter the apostle wasn't one of them. I am convinced that he was an observing Jew and remained one. He had no more time for Gentile -friendly Paulinism (on which present day Christianity is based - not on the beliefs of Jesus' actual followers) and i doubt that he ever went to Rome. If he did it wasn't as anything we could consider a Catholic Pope.
And the attempt to show that the bones found under the Vatican were that of Pope Peter I failed to stand up. In fact I recall that they were female.
That's my response, since you made an issue of it. I reject all these claims by the Catholic church to apostolic tradition and tracing its line to the time of Jesus. Appeal to Tradition like appeal to Faith is a way of maintaining as supposed Fact beliefs without evidence.
I'm a former Catholic and I like the guy, too. He seems to come from a place of pure compassion--no ego about him at all. I think Church doctrine is second to his true love of people. People see this. He's the real deal for sure.
Curious statement. Franny wants the US to take in refugees ... forgot to mention the same for his native Argentina. Is this hypocrisy?
Of course i was responding to the post above mine and the post (which evidently you didn't read) was a response to her point about excusing the Vatican of being filthy rich by pointing to how much it costs to build offices.
As to your post, however, the claims about the catholic church being traceable back to the 1st century and the bones of Peter as 1st Pope are very dubious.
I will give my view, for what it's worth. The Catholic church traces its ancestry to the Roman Imperial cult. The very word 'basilica' refers to an Imperial palace. Popes effectively didn't start until after Constantine's time when the 'Bishop of Rome' began putting pressure on the emperor to suppress all religions other than Christianity.
There may have been bishops of the roman Christians as there were of the others, but i am damn' sure Pter the apostle wasn't one of them. I am convinced that he was an observing Jew and remained one. He had no more time for Gentile -friendly Paulinism (on which present day Christianity is based - not on the beliefs of Jesus' actual followers) and i doubt that he ever went to Rome. If he did it wasn't as anything we could consider a Catholic Pope.
And the attempt to show that the bones found under the Vatican were that of Pope Peter I failed to stand up. In fact I recall that they were female.
That's my response, since you made an issue of it. I reject all these claims by the Catholic church to apostolic tradition and tracing its line to the time of Jesus. Appeal to Tradition like appeal to Faith is a way of maintaining as supposed Fact beliefs without evidence.
I love my work.
St. Peter the Apostle was executed and laid to rest at the Circus of Nero in ancient Rome, what today in present-day is the site of Vatican City. The bones that were found in St. Peters grave DO in fact belong to a male, not a female as you say, this was scientifically proven in the 1960s. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that verifies that this was in fact the site of St. Peter's grave.. You cannot ignore history simply because it does not fit into your agenda for attempting to disprove the teachings of the Catholic Church.. Vatican City IS sacred land and it will always be sacred, it is the very ROCK on which the church was built and the holy tradition of the papacy is passed on from generation to generation..
St. Peter the Apostle was executed and laid to rest at the Circus of Nero in ancient Rome, what today in present-day is the site of Vatican City. The bones that were found in St. Peters grave DO in fact belong to a male, not a female as you say, this was scientifically proven in the 1960s. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that verifies that this was in fact the site of St. Peter's grave.. You cannot ignore history simply because it does not fit into your agenda for attempting to disprove the teachings of the Catholic Church.. Vatican City IS sacred land and it will always be sacred, it is the very ROCK on which the church was built and the holy tradition of the papacy is passed on from generation to generation..
I take issue with this statement. The dead were carried off and buried in the hills around Rome. One of the reasons Roman wine was considered tasty because of the fertilizer the grape plants got.
Ta. whoever...yes the unedifying episode of the rival Papal courts excommunicating each other did nothing to enhance the reputation of an already shabby Papacy.
Over 60 years there were ribval 'antipopes' at Avingnon. I gather there were 7 'Vatican - legitimate' popes who resided there and five antipopes who ruled in defiance of the Popes in Rome at the time.
I have some recordings of the music for the courts of the antipapacy. They had some decent cathedrals too. None of which was hit by a thunderbolt to my knowledge.
The catholic church is, like all churches and denomination and creeds -a man made creation. The Papacy is a man -made invention and the Popes are al just men and often fallible and very mortal men. Men with political clout or at least residual political could derived through a persistent religious adherence. But that is all they have. Aside from a lot of valuable artworks. And they wouldn't have had those if Napoleon hadn't done a deal with the papacy because he wanted to become an Emperor and needed the Pope to legitimize it by being there. Just to show that he didn't need their authority, he crowned himself.
You have to like the guy for his sheer Chutzpah. Now let's see if I can find some Avignon music..
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-03-2015 at 09:25 AM..
Ta. whoever...yes the unedifying episode of the rival Papal courts excommunicating each other did nothing to enhance the reputation of an already shabby Papacy.
Over 60 years there were ribval 'antipopes' at Avingnon. I gather there were 7 'Vatican - legitimate' popes who resided there and five antipopes who ruled in defiance of the Popes in Rome at the time.
I have some recordings of the music for the courts of the antipapacy. They had some decent cathedrals too. None of which was hit by a thunderbolt to my knowledge.
The catholic church is, like all churches and denomination and creeds -a man made creation. The Papacy is a man -made invention and the Popes are al just men and often fallible and very mortal men. Men with political clout or at least residual political could derived through a persistent religious adherence. But that is all they have. Aside from a lot of valuable artworks. And they wouldn't have had those if Napoleon hadn't done a deal with the papacy because he wanted to become an Emperor and needed the Pope to legitimize it by being there. Just to show that he didn't need their authority, he crowned himself.
You have to like the guy for his sheer Chutzpah. Now let's see if I can find some Avignon music..
Despite all of the above the Catholic Church is the most formidable and greatest institution in Western Civilization.
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reminds me of Mr. Dollar's projected Learjet for the work of God. Hypocrisy, dear lady. And goverment offices may be massive and opulent, but they are not crammed with treasures bought with public money.
