I keep thinking about the folks in Oregon (women, preach, Jesus)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I wasn't talking about homeschooling. I was talking about the fact that children learn from the example their parents set. And others, of course. But parents are normally a child's first teachers.
Really? You think children need an ethics class to learn how to treat people when you just boiled down the lesson you believe should be taught into 2 sentences: "it really [is] in all our interests to observe the Golden rule (1) and not mess up other's lives. Because you will mess up your own in the end." Say it; live it.
ETA: I'm pretty sure most people who believe in God understand that not observing the Golden Rule will mess up life in the here and now. That some of them believe that it can also impact whatever life comes after this doesn't change that fact.
You seem to be deliberately missing the point. I knew I should have used the analogy that people can learn English and use it even grammatically without studying grammar. You can get by. You can get by effectively. But if, like Hyman Kaplan you ask why..you have no answer 'That just the way we do it'.
Same with learn it as you go morality. But when we ask why, we have no answer - except the one the religions pop in there 'God gave us moral laws'. That is not valid, does not actually stand up to scrutiny and they point is that it is inadequate when faith faiths. And the answer may well suit religion to claim that this is the reason why we need religion, true or not, because without God there is no morality.
And the reason they can get away with this, is because we generally get by with learn as you go morality. I had to learn what the real reasons were and every other atheist with a backup morality had to. But if it was taught as part of the curriculum - and what good reason is there for NOT teaching morality as part of the curiculum ...other than is deprives religious apologetics of one of its top fake arguments? - then we would all know why we have morality, why we need morality and why morality has absolutes and solid basis without a God having to say ..'Well, ahhm, rule 1...'
P.s Hillel I think said 'That is the law, and all the rest is commentary'. And they needed several books of commentary. Of course the whole moral thing is encapsulated very nicely in the Golden rule (with the Platinum amendment - 'do your own thing, so long as you are not messing up anyone else's thing'). But the application of that very fine principle requires a whole lot of discussion, case law and precedent. If it were that easy I wouldn't be proposing that Morality/Ethics be a curriculum subject.
SO even God must obey the rules of the supreme court? You fundies are hilarious.
On one hand YOU say you must disobey man's laws and on the other you blame the laws for keeping God out?? If I might, this deserves a HUGE # $ F ...
Read the court ruling on prayer in school--It states ALL Prayer must be STUDENT initaiated and that school staff cannot encourage prayer, support prayer or sponsor prayer..
I am astonished that they haven't found a way of getting students to "initiate " school prayer on a regular basis.
You seem to be deliberately missing the point. I knew I should have used the analogy that people can learn English and use it even grammatically without studying grammar. You can get by. You can get by effectively. But if, like Hyman Kaplan you ask why..you have no answer 'That just the way we do it'.
Same with learn it as you go morality. But when we ask why, we have no answer - except the one the religions pop in there 'God gave us moral laws'. That is not valid, does not actually stand up to scrutiny and they point is that it is inadequate when faith faiths. And the answer may well suit religion to claim that this is the reason why we need religion, true or not, because without God there is no morality.
And the reason they can get away with this, is because we generally get by with learn as you go morality. I had to learn what the real reasons were and every other atheist with a backup morality had to. But if it was taught as part of the curriculum - and what good reason is there for NOT teaching morality as part of the curiculum ...other than is deprives religious apologetics of one of its top fake arguments? - then we would all know why we have morality, why we need morality and why morality has absolutes and solid basis without a God having to say ..'Well, ahhm, rule 1...'
I have never said we should teach kids to treat others well "because some authority said so". I acknowledge that there are some people who rely on that. But many don't. Again, when in the course of the day situations or discussions come up, you teach kids how to treat each other. Kids don't need an ethics class that discusses whether or not God has anything to do with morality, in order to learn that the Golden Rule works because it's best for everyone.
I am astonished that they haven't found a way of getting students to "initiate " school prayer on a regular basis.
James Dobson's group promotes an annual prayer day for students to take part in at their schools..
As the event is held outside of school hours and not under their leadership, it is protected by 1st Amendment rights of freedom of religion and expression. However, the organization is clear it does not want the event to turn into an exercise of free speech.
I have never said we should teach kids to treat others well "because some authority said so". I acknowledge that there are some people who rely on that. But many don't. Again, when in the course of the day situations or discussions come up, you teach kids how to treat each other. Kids don't need an ethics class that discusses whether or not God has anything to do with morality, in order to learn that the Golden Rule works because it's best for everyone.
As I say, you can get by and in a secular world where we are not taught to believe that the only reason we treat others decently is that we might be risking another life in heaven if we disobey God's rules, it would probably do - though I also believe that the reason we still have so many social, personal and political problem is because we don't understand the instincts that drive us as individuals and groups - but we do live in a society where we have been taught that there is no morality without God.
The morality is there but...as I explained.. the rationale for it is not there. God is convenietly put is as a stopgap explanation. When Godfaith fails, the rationale fails. And possibly some who had only God as a reason not to run amok now do not see a good reason not to. If that isn't the reason..well, then, atheism isn't the issue here at all - as the religious would like it to be.
Now you tell me that is not a good reason to teach what the rationale and basis - and there is one - of morality is, and that we can leave it to 'learn as you go'.
James Dobson's group promotes an annual prayer day for students to take part in at their schools..
As the event is held outside of school hours and not under their leadership, it is protected by 1st Amendment rights of freedom of religion and expression. However, the organization is clear it does not want the event to turn into an exercise of free speech.
Well, if what they do is protected by law and right, good luck to them. It may be a shame if students are coerced into participating out of school hours or they rish a failing grade (I have heard a few worrying stories along those lines) and that just underlines the need of letting people have the right to opt out of religion without being penalized for it.
Not surprising this day and age that after Christians are slaughtered for their faith, people claim they are the evil ones.
Actually, I think it would be quite surprising - if it were actually happening. But I don't see any indication in this thread that it is. Is there something I'm missing?
As I say, you can get by and in a secular world where we are not taught to believe that the only reason we treat others decently is that we might be risking another life in heaven if we disobey God's rules, it would probably do - though I also believe that the reason we still have so many social, personal and political problem is because we don't understand the instincts that drive us as individuals and groups - but we do live in a society where we have been taught that there is no morality without God.
The morality is there but...as I explained.. the rationale for it is not there. God is convenietly put is as a stopgap explanation. When Godfaith fails, the rationale fails. And possibly some who had only God as a reason not to run amok now do not see a good reason not to. If that isn't the reason..well, then, atheism isn't the issue here at all - as the religious would like it to be.
Now you tell me that is not a good reason to teach what the rationale and basis - and there is one - of morality is, and that we can leave it to 'learn as you go'.
Oh good grief. Do you really think atheists are the only people who understand the importance of teaching children to treat each other well without the reliance on "God or some authority says so" as the only reason?
As I explained... the rationale for morality is there. You've got this weird caricature of all God-believers in your head, apparently, that you're fighting against: "They teach their children that the only reason we treat others decently is that we might be risking another life in heaven if we disobey God's rules." Puh-leeze.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
