I keep thinking about the folks in Oregon (scrutiny, believers, prayer)
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But riddle me this. Why didn't Jesus jam the gun? Why didn't Jesus make him get into a car accident on the way to school? Why didn't Jesus help the cops get there sooner? Why didn't Jesus cure his mental illness?
Because if you're going to claim people were shot because they were saying they were Christian, then you need to explain why Christ didn't save them.
But riddle me this. Why didn't Jesus jam the gun? Why didn't Jesus make him get into a car accident on the way to school? Why didn't Jesus help the cops get there sooner? Why didn't Jesus cure his mental illness?
Because if you're going to claim people were shot because they were saying they were Christian, then you need to explain why Christ didn't save them.
So a guy is labeled as a weird loner.
Washed out of boot camp.
Too creepy to get firearms instructions bc he gave off a bad vibe (per the instructors).
Angry he is a virgin.
But we are going to focus on the Christian thing.
That was a good joke - if joking is appropriate. And in fact does pose a pertinent question under the more obviously absurd one (God is supposed to be everywhere). And it is one raised before now. Correlation between rise in shootings and the removal of prayer and preaching in schools.
It is a matter that has been addressed. No matter how persuasive (never mind convenient for religious apologists) the correlation might be, it may not be what is behind acts like this, or not the whole thing.
I can see looming the 'we need more of the same - not less' fallacy used to cover up social failure, and I may be falling into that trap. But I have a theory that the reason we 'Need Religion' is that some people will indeed go off the rails if they cease to believe that the divine CCTV is watching and their entry ticket through the pearly turnstile is on the line if they don't play nice.
In other words, they have no back -up morality. When they lose their faith (and many do, without reading a word of Dawkins - they only need to read the Bible) they have nothing to fall back on. There is no humanist morality taught in school. There is no social responsibility. There is no reason, logic or concesus -morality taught.
I have a back up morality. Other 'Thinking atheists' have one. So it is there and it is effective. But nobody teaches this. Not here, not in the US. It is just not in the curriculum.
So I can't blame religion. I can't claim that the fault is with religious teachers, sulking because they can't teach creationism in the science class. But I could and I can argue that another explanation for this problem is that it is not because 'God is not allowed in school' but that nothing useful is being put in there to replace it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-04-2015 at 06:34 AM..
Teach critical thinking and teach about logical fallacies in schools and at home, by all means. Those things can help kids be more aware of how the choices they make in life can be influenced by other people and ideas. But morality isn't learned by reading a book or sitting in a class -- not in a school room, not in a church building, not even in a home. It's learned by children watching the examples around them. You want kids to learn how to treat others well, then make sure YOU are treating others well. And live with integrity -- live the morals you teach. Doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum of belief in God, your example is what is going to have a lasting impact on children.
But to be honest, what this has to do with a disturbed person killing people, I'm not sure. His problem went way deeper than "morality". Something was very obviously off.
Homeschooling has its limitations. The fact is that parents don't understand where we get our morality from, so how can they teach it? How can you blame them if they fall back on God given morality? And what can you expect when people stop believing that we shouldn't kill people - unless God says so.
No wonder one of the major arguing points is - or was until we perdition-bound pondslime learned the facts about Morality - that it is inexplicable with a god and in fact without God there is no morality. This is a major polemic point but it is utterly false.
But people believe it because none of us are taught where morality really comes from, why it is valid without a god - indeed it becomes totally invalid when it is based on the Bible and God - belief - and why it really in all our interests to observe the Golden rule (1) and not mess up other's lives. Because you will mess up your own in the end.
I was going on to discuss the aftermath of this atrocity and how it doesn't make sense in either religious or atheist motivation and only a crazy desire for notoriety. But I think we don't know all the facts yet (I read that he facebooked a request for people to pray for him, but i am not jumping on that at all as yet)
But the point (before I forget what it was) is that it is utterly clear that there is no graduate course, GCE or High School lessons in morality and if it is left to parents to teach it, you may as well leave it to the cat.
That should elicit a few protests..but the fact is that you can learn as much about empathy and responsibility from your cat as you can from your Mom who says you should play nice 'Because' or 'Jesus will be annoyed if you don't'.
(1) a rule which existed in all cultures long before the 1st century and only appears in Luke in a twisted form that allows (under the 'doing out of love for you' loophole)religious interference in others' affairs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Teach critical thinking and teach about logical fallacies in schools and at home, by all means. Those things can help kids be more aware of how the choices they make in life can be influenced by other people and ideas. But morality isn't learned by reading a book or sitting in a class -- not in a school room, not in a church building, not even in a home. It's learned by children watching the examples around them. You want kids to learn how to treat others well, then make sure YOU are treating others well. And live with integrity -- live the morals you teach. Doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum of belief in God, your example is what is going to have a lasting impact on children.
But to be honest, what this has to do with a disturbed person killing people, I'm not sure. His problem went way deeper than "morality". Something was very obviously off.
Indeed, you are correct. Morality is a census -system we learn as we go along. But we don't know WHY. That is how religion can put it down to a god (just as Paul said as a basis for his Sin -thesis 'Romans') and people can think of no better explanation.
But there is a better one and it shows up what a hollow sham the whole 'No morality without God' argument really is. Look up the Euthyphro dilemma and then consider the good in the Bible that we are supposed to applaud and emulate and the bad - like endorsement of slavery - that apologists have to explain away.
Where do they get the morality to judge what is good in the bible and what is bad? And if you say 'Well God gave us the ability to judge what is in his bok - consider Euthyphro again.
And then tell me that it is perfectly adequate that we just learn this stuff as we go on. Nobody understand this stuff outside of philosophy ethics class OR atheist apologetics. It is high time we did, because without it, we risk being left without a reason to be moral if and when faith fails.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-04-2015 at 07:11 AM..
I wasn't talking about homeschooling. I was talking about the fact that children learn from the example their parents set. And others, of course. But parents are normally a child's first teachers.
Quote:
The fact is that parents don't understand where we get our morality from, so how can they teach it? How can you blame them if they fall back on God given morality? And what can you expect when people stop believing that we shouldn't kill people - unless God says so.
No wonder one of the major arguing points is - or was until we perdition-bound pondslime learned the facts about Morality - that it is inexplicable with a god and in fact without God there is no morality. This is a major polemic point but it is utterly false.
But people believe it because none of us are taught where morality really comes from, why it is valid without a god - indeed it becomes totally invalid when it is based on the Bible and God - belief - and why it really in all our interests to observe the Golden rule (1) and not mess up other's lives. Because you will mess up your own in the end.
I was going on to discuss the aftermath of this atrocity and how it doesn't make sense in either religious or atheist motivation and only a crazy desire for notoriety. But I think we don't know all the facts yet (I read that he facebooked a request for people to pray for him, but i am not jumping on that at all as yet)
But the point (before I forget what it was) is that it is utterly clear that there is no graduate course, GCE or High School lessons in morality and if it is left to parents to teach it, you may as well leave it to the cat.
That should elicit a few protests..but the fact is that you can learn as much about empathy and responsibility from your cat as you can from your Mom who says you should play nice 'Because' or 'Jesus will be annoyed if you don't'.
(1) a rule which existed in all cultures long before the 1st century and only appears in Luke in a twisted form that allows (under the 'doing out of love for you' loophole)religious interference in others' affairs.
Indeed, you are correct. Morality is a census -system we learn as we go along. But we don't know WHY. That is how religion can put it down to a god (just as Paul said as a basis for his Sin -thesis 'Romans') and people can think of no better explanation.
But there is a better one and it shows up what a hollow sham the whole 'No morality without God' argument really is. Look up the Euthyphro dilemma and then consider the good in the Bible that we are supposed to applaud and emulate and the bad - like endorsement of slavery - that apologists have to explain away.
Where do they get the morality to judge what is good in the bible and what is bad? And if you say 'Well God gave us the ability to judge what is in his bok - consider Euthyphro again.
And then tell me that it is perfectly adequate that we just learn this stuff as we go on. Nobody understand this stuff outside of philosophy ethics class OR atheist apologetics. It is high time we did, because without it, we risk being left without a reason to be moral if and when faith fails.
Really? You think children need an ethics class to learn how to treat people when you just boiled down the lesson you believe should be taught into 2 sentences: "it really [is] in all our interests to observe the Golden rule (1) and not mess up other's lives. Because you will mess up your own in the end." Say it; live it.
ETA: I'm pretty sure most people who believe in God understand that not observing the Golden Rule will mess up life in the here and now. That some of them believe that it can also impact whatever life comes after this doesn't change that fact.'
Another ETA: Maybe public schools should follow the example of some parochial schools (or home schools), if they aren't already. They don't confine the discussion of how to treat people to one class. It comes up naturally in many discussions and daily interactions. It's taught "across the curriculum". It's much less artificial that way.
GOD has restrictions placed on him..sorry, I cannot get the image to show so I am paraphrasing the finnie's cartoon..
SO even God must obey the rules of the supreme court? You fundies are hilarious.
On one hand YOU say you must disobey man's laws and on the other you blame the laws for keeping God out?? If I might, this deserves a HUGE # $ F ...
Read the court ruling on prayer in school--It states ALL Prayer must be STUDENT initaiated and that school staff cannot encourage prayer, support prayer or sponsor prayer..
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that the reason we 'Need Religion' is that some people will indeed go off the rails if they cease to believe that the divine CCTV is watching and their entry ticket through the pearly turnstile is on the line if they don't play nice. 
