A few questions about heaven (and hell) (Deuteronomy, salvation, God)
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Thanks Katzpur. My reaction would be to say that if you are going to believe in Heaven and Hell, then this would be a far fairer (more just) view of things. Traditional Christian views of hell always seem to me to be not only unjust but utterly illogical. ie the only people getting in are Christians who have been 'saved'. What about Hindus then, or Buddhists or Sikhs or atheists that have lived good lives? They don't get in because they have a different belief, or maybe even live somewhere so remote they don't even know what Christianity is? Makes the 'god of love' statement go straight out of the window.
Thanks for your positive remarks. I agree that a God who would send billions to an eternity of torment and anguish for the simple reason that they had the misfortune of having been born at the wrong time or in the wrong place is absolutely beyond absurd. To me, this is one of the major draws of the religion.
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Your view of things seems a lot more sensible and more in keeping with the 'god of love' message. Do I take it that Mormon writings (do I call them scriptures?) supercede anything written in the bible?
Yes, they are all called scriptures. When other Christians speak of the scriptures, they are referring specifically to the Bible. When Mormons use the word, we could be referring to any of the following:
The Bible
The Book of Mormon
The Doctrine and Covenants
The Pearl of Great Price
And no, we don't believe they "supercede" the Bible. Rather, we believe that they add depth and clarification to the teachings of the Bible, and fill in the gaps on issues (like heaven and hell) on which the Bible is vague or incomplete. None of the three other volumes of scripture contradict the Bible, but they do teach doctrines on which the Bible is essentially silent or can be interpreted in more than one way.
My experiences lead me to conclude that we retain our individuality but achieve a oneness of Spirit with all others in a multitude. I am obviously ill-equipped here to know exactly how those instances of our life where we were decidedly unloving (or unGodly) will be handled. The integration of personality that usually occurs would suggest that they are ultimately integrated whenever we address them (as in repentance or remorse). But, the existence of multiple personality disorder suggests that it may not necessarily be so, especially if they are NOT addressed while alive.
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Originally Posted by Cruithne
I'm not sure what you mean by the inclusion or relevance of 'multiple personality disorder'. Do you believe in reincarnation of some kind?
Also you seem to be indicating that you believe in the possibility that there will be some sort of judgement that takes place after death?
I am sorry my explanations are confusing. No reincarnation, no judgment and no punishment. What we experience is self-inflicted because we are simply required to experience whatever unrepentant negative hurt or harm we inflicted on others during life. As for MPD, if for some reason your personality is not integrated before death, I am uncertain how the different personas would be handled. Everything I can infer from my experiences suggests that it is our integrated personality that is the one that must be made completely compatible with Christ's.
I already showed how the word "hell" was used by the German people. They would hell (cover) their potatoes or they would hell (cover) their roof of their house or barn. They would hell (cover) a dead person in their grave with dirt.
The very word "[h]ades" means "imperceptible" in that one, once they die, is no longer seen since, upon death, are in the tomb. It comes from the joining of the prefix "a" meaning "un" or "no" as in a-theist, and "des" which is contracted due to crasis, and means "perceive" or "see."
In the PARABLE of the rich man and lazarus, Hades was used as a story to teach a lesson, not an historic account of what happens when one dies. The ancient Hebrews used Sheol of the grave. The Jewish Greeks, in their Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek translated Sheol as Hades showing they meant Hades to be the grave.
In a grave or tomb, there isn't really fire or a river running through it or a vast impassable chasm. And scripturally, when a person dies they don't literally feel pain. And rich people don't go to torment just because they received the good things in this life. And poor people don't go to heaven just because they received evil things in this life. Yet the parable portrays just that. The parable was to poke at the religious rulers who wore fine clothing and ate sumptuously while they neglected the poor. They hated Jesus because of that parable and sought to kill Him.
So Jesus mislead the hearers? Did He also mislead the thief on the cross when He said to him, "THIS DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"? You don't believe that Paradise and Hell are an actual spiritual destination? Did Jesus practice this type of deception in all His parabolic stories? Nobody goes to heaven, IF you believe what Jesus said in John 1:18 & 6:46. Do you?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
The Bible doesn't say the lake of fire is eternal nor does it say the humans are conscious in that lake. How could they be especially when it is DEATH?
Matt 25:41; [SIZE=2] [/SIZE]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Rev 20:10; And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Death always has to do with lack of animation in the human body. It NEVER refers to a spirit or soul.
The same holds true for the Greek θάνατος (thanatos), the extinction of life, whether naturally, or violently. Nobody dies spiritually, as Heb 9:27 clearly shows death is of the body. However Jesus also says that even though we may die physically, John 11:25, we WILL live, eternally. To live is life and Eternal Life will happen when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with God as it's head.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Matthew 25:31-46 is not about the lake of fire. That judgment of those nations as to how they treated the Israelites takes place when Christ returns to set up His 1000 year long kingdom in Israel. So that judgment in Matthew takes place 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne judgment.
Of course it does, if you accept what Jesus says in Rev 20:10. If you can't see that we can discuss it further.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Eternal torment is not factual. Paul tells us that "God will have all mankind to be saved" and that God is going to reconcile ALL in the heavens and ALL on the earth to Him making peace through the blood of Christ's cross. And then Paul says "you (believers) are reconciled NOW" therefore the rest of mankind must come later (see 1 Tim.2:4-6; Colossians 1:20-23).
It IS, if you accept what Jesus said in Rev 20:10. If you don't, then that is a bigger problem than THIS issue. FYI, being reconciled and being saved are NOT the same thing. ALL mankind was redeemed and reconciled TO God when Jesus died and rose. Salvation is accepting that sacrifice and accepting Him as our saviour. God does indeed want ALL to be saved, but not all WILL be saved, as not all will choose Jesus as their saviour. Col 1:22-23 states; But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.
Hopefully you see the distinction and demarcation here between reconciliation and salvation?
I am sorry my explanations are confusing. No reincarnation, no judgment and no punishment. What we experience is self-inflicted because we are simply required to experience whatever unrepentant negative hurt or harm we inflicted on others during life. As for MPD, if for some reason your personality is not integrated before death, I am uncertain how the different personas would be handled. Everything I can infer from my experiences suggests that it is our integrated personality that is the one that must be made completely compatible with Christ's.
Thanks for the explanation but it's the use of the words 'will be handled' that are still throwing me. Handled by whom? Sorry I'm not very good with metaphor or symbolism but this still implies intervention of some kind as far as I read it.
Thanks for your positive remarks. I agree that a God who would send billions to an eternity of torment and anguish for the simple reason that they had the misfortune of having been born at the wrong time or in the wrong place is absolutely beyond absurd. To me, this is one of the major draws of the religion.
Yes, they are all called scriptures. When other Christians speak of the scriptures, they are referring specifically to the Bible. When Mormons use the word, we could be referring to any of the following:
The Bible
The Book of Mormon
The Doctrine and Covenants
The Pearl of Great Price
And no, we don't believe they "supercede" the Bible. Rather, we believe that they add depth and clarification to the teachings of the Bible, and fill in the gaps on issues (like heaven and hell) on which the Bible is vague or incomplete. None of the three other volumes of scripture contradict the Bible, but they do teach doctrines on which the Bible is essentially silent or can be interpreted in more than one way.
Thanks for the clarification. You have a fascinating religion.
Your link above actually agrees with me in the bolded part:
"hell (n.)also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- (2) "to cover, conceal" (see cell)."
Just because THEY thought hell is the nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of tormet of the wicked after death" does not mean "HADES" originally carried that idea by the Greek writers of the New Testament. It certainly didn't since those Greek Jews translated Sheol (the grave) by "Hades.'"
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So Jesus mislead the hearers? Did He also mislead the thief on the cross when He said to him, "THIS DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"? You don't believe that Paradise and Hell are an actual spiritual destination? Did Jesus practice this type of deception in all His parabolic stories? Nobody goes to heaven, IF you believe what Jesus said in John 1:18 & 6:46. Do you?
No, Jesus didn't mislead His hearers. If we are going to take Jesus literally in the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus, then we must also take Him literally in the parable just before it of the prodigal son. That son died and went to the pig farm and got tired of all the crap, went back to his father who embraced him and said "This my son was dead yet now he lives!"
So according to the parable of the R man and Lazarus, Abraham said the reason the rich man went to your hell was because he had good things in this life. He never said it was because he wasn't a believer. And Abraham said the reason Lazarus went to your idea of heaven was because he received evil things in this life. So if you want to ensure you go to heaven, move to a poor African state or to Afghanistan.
Is Jesus a literal Shepherd? Will He literally go looking for literal lost sheep until He find them? No. The sheep literally are people. Jesus is allowed to use vivid imagery in parables to make a point.
Jesus never told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that very day in paradise. Jesus was in the tomb for three days and was dead. Literally dead. Unconsciously dead as was that thief. What Jesus did say was "I am saying to you this day, you will be with me in paradise." The comma rightly goes after "day." Paradise for the thief is when the thief said : "remember me when You come in your kingdom." The paradise the thief was going to was when he is resurrected from the dead and enters into that kingdom Jesus is going to set up when He returns. It will be in Israel and be the 1000 year kingdom.
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Matt 25:41; “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Rev 20:10; And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Torment has to do with the mind, not the body. The lake of fire is not called "death" for those three stooges. It is torment for them. For humanity it is called DEATH.
Also, Matthew 25:31-46 has to do with when Christ returns to set up His thousand year kingdom in Israel. It is the judgment of those NATIONS as to how those NATIONS treated His brethren during their great tribulation. It has nothing to do with faith in Christ or lack thereof.
Lastly, "for ever and ever" is a very poor translation if you think "ever" means "eternal." For instance, if "for ever" means eternal, then how does another "ever" get beyond the first ever. For one "ever" to take over another "ever" the one "ever" has to end. Therefore, for ever and ever cannot mean "eternal." And "aion" is plural in both places in Revelation 20:10 and is in the genitive (possessive). So it would be better translated "for the eons OF the eons" or "for the ages OF the ages" to show the pluralness and genitiveness of the phrase. Just as "the Holies of the Holies" in the tabernacle does not tell us of holies tumbling upon holies for eternity, rather it tells us of the last two greatest holiest parts in the tabernacle where God met with man. Likewise the "eons of the eons" are the last two greatest eons where Christ meets with man and then in the final eon God and Christ meet with man on the earth.
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Death always has to do with lack of animation in the human body. It NEVER refers to a spirit or soul.
That is incorrect. When a person dies the spirit returns to God who gave it and the soul goes to nothingness. The soul is just the result of spirit and body coming together as we see in Genesis when Adam was created. God created him **flesh,** then breathed into him **spirit** and THEN Adam BECAME a living **soul.**
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The same holds true for the Greek θάνατος (thanatos), the extinction of life, whether naturally, or violently. Nobody dies spiritually, as Heb 9:27 clearly shows death is of the body. However Jesus also says that even though we may die physically, John 11:25, we WILL live, eternally. To live is life and Eternal Life will happen when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with God as it's head.
Umm, Hebrews 9:27 says no such thing as you intimate.
We will not live eternally unless our bodies are resurrected from the dead. Paul said if their is no resurrection, vain is your faith and more forlorn than all men are we.
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FYI, being reconciled and being saved are NOT the same thing.
When one is reconciled to God they are at peace with God and God is at peace with that one. When one is saved one is saved from sin and death into God's salvation of immortality and incorruption.
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ALL mankind was redeemed and reconciled TO God when Jesus died and rose. Salvation is accepting that sacrifice and accepting Him as our saviour. God does indeed want ALL to be saved, but not all WILL be saved, as not all will choose Jesus as their saviour. Col 1:22-23 states; But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.
Hopefully you see the distinction and demarcation here between reconciliation and salvation?
The "if" in "if you continue in your faith" can also be translated "since." And it is a present enjoyment of reconciliation to God. As long as they continue in the faith they will enjoy their present peace with God. But if they don't continue they will lose the joy of enjoying that reconciliation. But they will never lose their ultimate reconciliation with God. They are sealed with the spirit of promise TILL the day of deliverance. They cannot lose their eonian life.
God does indeed want ALL mankind to be saved therefore God will save all mankind. That is what 1 Timothy 2:4 says. But why will God save all mankind? The answer is given in the next two verses: "There is only one God and one mediator of God and man, the man Christ Jesus Who gave Himself a ransom for All (humans)."
Since there is only one God, there are no competing Gods who can thwart His plan to save all. Since Christ is the Mediator of God and man He mediated the proper outcome for God to save all. And since Christ ransomed all mankind, all mankind MUST be freed from sin and death into God's salvation.
In the entire Bible, any animal or human that was ransomed had to be freed. No if's ands or buts about it. You can read more about this at Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
I am sorry my explanations are confusing. No reincarnation, no judgment and no punishment. What we experience is self-inflicted because we are simply required to experience whatever unrepentant negative hurt or harm we inflicted on others during life. As for MPD, if for some reason your personality is not integrated before death, I am uncertain how the different personas would be handled. Everything I can infer from my experiences suggests that it is our integrated personality that is the one that must be made completely compatible with Christ's.
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Originally Posted by Cruithne
Thanks for the explanation but it's the use of the words 'will be handled' that are still throwing me. Handled by whom? Sorry I'm not very good with metaphor or symbolism but this still implies intervention of some kind as far as I read it.
I don't know how it "would be handled" is my way of saying I don't know what the consequences are of entering death with multiple personalities unresolved and not integrated. Everything that happens is just consequences of OUR making. Just as if we violate the law of gravity there are consequences, but no punishments or judgments.
Your link above actually agrees with me in the bolded part:
"hell (n.) also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- (2) "to cover, conceal" (see cell)."
Just because THEY thought hell is the nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment of the wicked after death" does not mean "HADES" originally carried that idea by the Greek writers of the New Testament. It certainly didn't since those Greek Jews translated Sheol (the grave) as "Hades."
A cell is a small room for storage, much like that of a basement or grave.
It's not a place of pain and suffering, people are not eternally tormented.
Roll a stone in front of a cave and it becomes a tomb, nothing more.
Your link above actually agrees with me in the bolded part: "hell (n.) also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- (2) "to cover, conceal" (see cell)."
Just because THEY thought hell is the nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of tormet of the wicked after death" does not mean "HADES" originally carried that idea by the Greek writers of the New Testament. It certainly didn't since those Greek Jews translated Sheol (the grave) by "Hades.'"
You mean you agree with part of what they show, but my point was our modern English Hell comes from the OLD English which itself stemmed from the Proto-Germanic, which is not the German we know today. IMO, that makes a difference, and if you would have worded it as such with ALL the connotations I would not have responded with the clarification.
The word in modern English today is functionally equivalent to the Greek word used in the Koine Greek. Let's not obfuscate what credentialed scholars have used.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
No, Jesus didn't mislead His hearers. If we are going to take Jesus literally in the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus, then we must also take Him literally in the parable just before it of the prodigal son. That son died and went to the pig farm and got tired of all the crap, went back to his father who embraced him and said "This my son was dead yet now he lives!"
The two are NOT related. This parable of the prodigal son is NOT the same issue. The prodigal is symbolic of the Gentiles, and the so-called faithful son was indicative of the Pharisees and their verbal laws of good works. Not at all the same as Paradise and Hades.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
So according to the parable of the R man and Lazarus, Abraham said the reason the rich man went to your hell was because he had good things in this life. He never said it was because he wasn't a believer. And Abraham said the reason Lazarus went to your idea of heaven was because he received evil things in this life. So if you want to ensure you go to heaven, move to a poor African state or to Afghanistan.
Nope. The parable had to do with even though Jesus rose from the dead, his own, who were represented by the brothers of the rich man, would not believe, even though He DID come back from the dead.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Is Jesus a literal Shepherd? Will He literally go looking for literal lost sheep until He find them? No. The sheep literally are people. Jesus is allowed to use vivid imagery in parables to make a point.
He's not? The Bible says he is. Do you think that a shepherd only herds sheep? I suggest you learn the definition, and see how it is used IN the context of where it is used. I love coffee and I love Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Jesus never told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that very day in paradise. Jesus was in the tomb for three days and was dead. Literally dead. Unconsciously dead as was that thief. What Jesus did say was "I am saying to you this day, you will be with me in paradise." The comma rightly goes after "day." Paradise for the thief is when the thief said : "remember me when You come in your kingdom." The paradise the thief was going to was when he is resurrected from the dead and enters into that kingdom Jesus is going to set up when He returns. It will be in Israel and be the 1000 year kingdom.
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
As Greek doesn't have punctuation and you are not a Greek translator, I will leave it up to actual translators to insert the punctuation where it belongs. The following link shows five of the most popular English translations today, and you'll see NONE of them translate it the way you have improperly done so above. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...KJV;NET;MOUNCE
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Torment has to do with the mind, not the body. The lake of fire is not called "death" for those three stooges. It is torment for them. For humanity it is called DEATH.
Also, Matthew 25:31-46 has to do with when Christ returns to set up His thousand year kingdom in Israel. It is the judgment of those NATIONS as to how those NATIONS treated His brethren during their great tribulation. It has nothing to do with faith in Christ or lack thereof.
That's right, and the lake of fire IS called the second death, because all those humans that were thrown in it were resurrected for the judgement. Rev 20:10 & 14 are the same place.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Lastly, "for ever and ever" is a very poor translation if you think "ever" means "eternal." For instance, if "for ever" means eternal, then how does another "ever" get beyond the first ever. For one "ever" to take over another "ever" the one "ever" has to end. Therefore, for ever and ever cannot mean "eternal." And "aion" is plural in both places in Revelation 20:10 and is in the genitive (possessive). So it would be better translated "for the eons OF the eons" or "for the ages OF the ages" to show the pluralness and genitiveness of the phrase. Just as "the Holies of the Holies" in the tabernacle does not tell us of holies tumbling upon holies for eternity, rather it tells us of the last two greatest holiest parts in the tabernacle where God met with man. Likewise the "eons of the eons" are the last two greatest eons where Christ meets with man and then in the final eon God and Christ meet with man on the earth.
Again you would have to actually provide your credentials in this regard, or cite a credentialed scholar that asserts this, with proper exegesis. The following shows the Greek and English in interlinear fashion; https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...version=MOUNCE
It means what it says, FOR ALL TIME. As our gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through His Son, Christ Jesus, time does not go away, and neither will their torment.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
That is incorrect. When a person dies the spirit returns to God who gave it and the soul goes to nothingness. The soul is just the result of spirit and body coming together as we see in Genesis when Adam was created. God created him **flesh,** then breathed into him **spirit** and THEN Adam BECAME a living **soul.**
That's a manmade humanistic false teaching that is NOT corroborated anywhere in the Bible.
God said from dust we are created and to dust we shall return, which speaks of the body. He NEVER said that the spirit he breathed into us will ever return to Him. Once you breathe out, it doesn't come back in. Again you negate what Jesus taught in Luke 16.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Umm, Hebrews 9:27 says no such thing as you intimate.
It says; Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.
Where do people wait for that judgment?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
We will not live eternally unless our bodies are resurrected from the dead. Paul said if their is no resurrection, vain is your faith and more forlorn than all men are we.
That's right, believers, those that are saved, will inherit ETERNAL LIFE. Life means we are as we were created...body, soul and spirit. If you're not alive, you are just a soul/spirit, waiting for the judgement.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
When one is reconciled to God they are at peace with God and God is at peace with that one. When one is saved one is saved from sin and death into God's salvation of immortality and incorruption.
Reconciliation is what Jesus did. He reconciled us TO God, not the other way around. The reason we have to accept Jesus is because we make the second move towards full reconciliation. We admit we are sinners and that Jesus is our God and savior. Without that, we are NOT saved and cannot inherit eternal life.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
The "if" in "if you continue in your faith" can also be translated "since." And it is a present enjoyment of reconciliation to God. As long as they continue in the faith they will enjoy their present peace with God. But if they don't continue they will lose the joy of enjoying that reconciliation. But they will never lose their ultimate reconciliation with God. They are sealed with the spirit of promise TILL the day of deliverance. They cannot lose their eonian life.
I'm sure it can, but that not what the context insists upon here so in this instance it cannot and should not unless one is eisegeting. Heb 10:36 supports this meaning, as does John 8:31, John 15:4-7, and 10. We are sealed until we break that seal. Apostasy happens to whoever stops believing.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
God does indeed want ALL mankind to be saved therefore God will save all mankind. That is what 1 Timothy 2:4 says. But why will God save all mankind? The answer is given in the next two verses: "There is only one God and one mediator of God and man, the man Christ Jesus Who gave Himself a ransom for All (humans)."
Since there is only one God, there are no competing Gods who can thwart His plan to save all. Since Christ is the Mediator of God and man He mediated the proper outcome for God to save all. And since Christ ransomed all mankind, all mankind MUST be freed from sin and death into God's salvation.
In the entire Bible, any animal or human that was ransomed had to be freed. No if's ands or buts about it. You can read more about this at Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
Paul say WANTS, not COMMANDS or WILLS it. Peter says the same thing and Paul said IF you confess.
Sorry but free will is still the basis for our salvation. If we don't confess, we won't be saved, and those that die without confessing has no possibility of being saved, which is why Heb 9:27 says what it does.
Jesus said; “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Jesus died for ALL sin, not for ALL men. To benefit from his act of redemption, we must confess and accept Him as our saviour, before we die.
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