Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
People, albeit not all, dream of a magical kingdom or garden over the horizon.
Instead of enjoying the mountain air, and ocean breeze that is present in this life.
Living in the moment means letting go of the past, and not fearing tomorrow.
The purpose of life is to taste, feel and experience it.
It is not about superstition or negative consequences.
As for death, nothing truly ever dies.
Although, we may experience the state of dying?
Whereas, religion holds the concept of opposites; good and evil.
Interesting. I like this perspective - "nothing ever truly dies".
Sounds on a par with how I see things as an atheist. First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.
I like how you think Jerwade. Thanks for your input.
I actually believe in both, but my beliefs about them are pretty different from those taught by traditional Christianity. If I were to go into any amount of detail at all about my beliefs, my post would be longer than the forum rules permit. So suffice it to say (unless you are curious and would like to know more), I believe that almost everyone who has ever lived will end up going to Heaven. That doesn't mean I believe all will receive the same reward in Heaven. Jesus said that He would reward every man according to his works, and I believe that the greater the works, the greater the reward.
In terms of Hell, I see it in two different respects. I believe that no one goes immediately to either Heaven or Hell immediately upon death, but awaits the resurrection in a temporary realm or state known in my religion as "the Spirit World." The spirit world, according to Mormon theology, is divided into Paradise (a place of peace and rest for the righteous) and Prison (a hell-like state where the wicked are tormented by guilt for their wickedness). Our teaching is that repentance is possible, though, even after death, and those in prison can join those in paradise through sincere repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as the means by which the gift of redemption is given.
We believe that nothing would please God more than for every single one of His children to ultimately accept His Son's sacrifice on their part, and will do everything He can -- except exerting force -- to get them to do so. Our belief is that, by the time we all stand before Him to be judged (i.e. at the time we are resurrected), all but a very tiny number will have come to realize that Jesus Christ is their Savior and will be permitted at least some degree of the Father's glory in His kingdom.
Thanks Katzpur. My reaction would be to say that if you are going to believe in Heaven and Hell, then this would be a far fairer (more just) view of things. Traditional Christian views of hell always seem to me to be not only unjust but utterly illogical. ie the only people getting in are Christians who have been 'saved'. What about Hindus then, or Buddhists or Sikhs or atheists that have lived good lives? They don't get in because they have a different belief, or maybe even live somewhere so remote they don't even know what Christianity is? Makes the 'god of love' statement go straight out of the window.
Your view of things seems a lot more sensible and more in keeping with the 'god of love' message. Do I take it that Mormon writings (do I call them scriptures?) supercede anything written in the bible?
There are millions of Christians who do not believe in hell based on what the Bible teaches and what Jesus believed
To start with the Bible explains the condition of the dead. There is no immortal soul that survives death thus nothing to torment eternally in hell fire.
Genesis 3:19, "for dust you are and dust you will return."
Ecclesiastes 3:19, "for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile."
Ecclesiastes 9:5, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.
Ancient Jews unlike their contemporary counterparts believed the rich, poor, famous, infamous, righteous and wicked all ended up in the same "abode" "state" or "place" at death.
Jesus was a Jew and his thoughts would be in line with the thoughts of Jews in general as above. His thoughts about death are found in John 11:11 with the resurrection of Lazarus. He described death like sleep (not literally sleep but like sleep). Compare Matthew 9:24.
So what about Mark 9:47:48 doesn't it teach hell fire? Let's look at a typical Bible translation"
KJV, "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
However, other Bible translations that use the word "hell" as a footnote include "Gehenna" which was the original word used in the early Koine Greek copies of the Bible. Why is that important? Jesus's audience was Jewish and they understood what Gehenna meant. Gehenna was a literal garbage dump of Jerusalem in which everything was incinerated by constant fires. It also had a more sinister reminder to those very same Jews that because of their ancestors burning people alive God abandoned them. God said having people burn in fire didn't even enter his heart..see Jeremiah 7:31.
By the way, I am a Jehovah's Witness and contrary to the misleading amount of info on the internet we aren't robotically told to avoid any literature from other sources. For example take note of the below:
Hence John in Revelation 20:14 calls the "lake of fire" the second death.
The Bible teaches that many who have died will be resurrected. However some will stay dead.
As far as heaven...
Jesus himself said God is a spirit (John 4:24)
1 kings 8:27 states that the heavens themselves cant contain God
Daniel 7:9-11 indicates many angels reside there alongside God.
Thus Heaven is the spirit realm where God and the angels reside. It isn't among the stars or planets or sky because spirit creatures do not have a physical form and certainly no astronomer that I am aware of has caught a glimpse of a cherub or two.
Very interesting post. Thank you.
I had just assumed that Jesus, if he existed, believed in hell, but after reading your post and doing a bit more research, it seems that he probably didn't.
Even if there are one or two references in the New Testament, you would think that if Jesus did believe in hell, it would be mentioned a lot more often. It's not as if a belief in hell is an inconsequential thing.
This makes me wonder about how many Christians only follow the New Testament and reject the Old testament. A new thread for another time maybe?
Cruithne, you got me curious, so I googled a poll and found a 2013 one about beliefs in America. It's kind of weird that belief in God as well as belief in Jesus' resurrection is down more percentage points than a belief in hell is. I'm glad to see it (a belief in hell) going down but nearly 60% of the population still believes in hell.
New York, N.Y. - December 16, 2013 - A new Harris Poll finds that while a strong majority (74%) of U.S. adults do believe in God, this belief is in decline when compared to previous years as just over four in five (82%) expressed a belief in God in 2005, 2007 and 2009. Also, while majorities also believe in miracles (72%, down from 79% in 2005), heaven (68%, down from 75%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (68%, down from 72%), the resurrection of Jesus Christ (65%, down from 70%), the survival of the soul after death (64%, down from 69%), the devil, hell (both at 58%, down from 62%) and the Virgin birth (57%, down from 60%), these are all down from previous Harris Polls.
Also, a belief in hell I suppose ties in to a certain extent with creationism in America, which is still (relative to other westernised cultures) extremely high.
The difference, Finn, is that I could NOT love a God who was responsible for such things and you apparently CAN. That speaks mostly about the differences between US, Finn. That difference is what I wear as a badge of honor.
What strikes me about this Mystic is that the two of you are making choices about the type of god you feel comfortable about believing in... just an observation.
Thanks everyone for your responses, I have learned a lot, and I think I understand better why some Christians don't believe in hell.
There were quite a few votes for "I have a different viewpoint from the options above" which I found surprising, but not many people fleshed out what those 'other' viewpoints were...
I have learned that there is more than one view of 'hell' in modern Christianity, ranging from; the traditional OT eternal hell-fire version, to a version that isn't actually hell, and all sorts of shades of grey (or orange ) in-between. I have learned that possibly Jesus didn't even believe in hell, depending on your interpretation.
I still haven't got to grips with where people believe heaven (and hell) are, so if anyone else has any responses to that part of the question, that would be great also.
What strikes me about this Mystic is that the two of you are making choices about the type of god you feel comfortable about believing in... just an observation.
God according to the scriptures is a comforter. I will stay with the one who makes me feel comfortable about all that he IS.
'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
The bible literalist will look at this and think God went some where.......... not at all. Jesus Christ took away the concept of God above to God with us when he walked this world, and to those who now accept he is the revelation of God's heart, he goes away and reveals God in us.
Jesus Christ forever bringing the reality of where God abides to us.
God according to the scriptures is a comforter. I will stay with the one who makes me feel comfortable about all that he IS.
'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
The bible literalist will look at this and think God went some where.......... not at all. Jesus Christ took away the concept of God above to God with us when he walked this world, and to those who now accept he is the revelation of God's heart, he goes away and reveals God in us.
Jesus Christ forever bringing the reality of where God abides to us.
Thanks pcamps.
.....quick aside. Your current status "and did those feet in ancient times" reminds me of home.
I think it is extremely doubtful that Jesus, if he even existed, ever visited Glastonbury . Nevertheless, the poem and song is my absolute favorite. Best hymn ever written in my humble opinion, but then I'm very biased as I'm English.
What strikes me about this Mystic is that the two of you are making choices about the type of god you feel comfortable about believing in... just an observation.
No, I am not making a choice, Mystic is. I accept God the way he is, and my whole point was to say that our opinion won't make things disappear. I used death as an example, and then holocaust. We cannot wish things away, and the same it true about hell. If it exists, it will be there no matter how hard we try to deny it, or argue it is unfair, or that God is cruel for allowing such thing.
As for claims that Christians think God went away....it could not be farther from the truth. It is a complete misrepresentation of Christian beliefs. Jesus Christ leaving the Holy Spirit with us is a Christian core belief.
No, I am not making a choice, Mystic is. I accept God the way he is
And what way may that be ? The way you have found him(you know that personal relationship thing you all claim you have) or the way of the bible ?.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
