Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes. Pleroo's explanation above comes very close minus any implication of punishment of any kind. Our consciousness is the locus of all our feelings and thoughts, both heavenly and hellish. We literally create both sets of conditions within our consciousness and they are not illusory. Our consciousness is a real production of a real energic phenomenon within our reality. The cumulative composite is what defines our character and what we will experience after death and rebirth as Spirit.
The Zoroastrian conception is another useful paradigm that informs my view. I do not embrace it completely, but it is instructive about the import of our thoughts and feelings since we can control them. The Zoroastrian conception of heaven and hell should engender some thoughtful reflection for this discussion. Heaven is described as an immortality of purity in thought, word, and deed. Hell is described as an age-during of evil thoughts, words, and deeds, and mental torment. You can see why this resonates with my view that we are to join the consciousness of God after death (which cannot be other than pure thoughts, words, and deeds) or join the consciousness of the failures (which cannot be other than evil thoughts, words, and deeds with immense regret . . . "weeping and gnashing of teeth").
I envision the latter as composed entirely of experiencing whatever hurt and harm we have done to others, either deliberately or obliviously, out of our selfish motivation. This would be a true "reap what we sow." IOW, WE control what we will experience based on how we treat others in this life. God will simply supply us with the clarity of consciousness of His pure agape love as the backdrop for our self-assessment of our entire life. This will produce an enduring change of our consciousness (repentance) that will make us compatible enough to join with God's consciousness.
Thanks for sharing Mystic. After all you said here, this might sound like a childish question but I'm just interested... do you think your consciousness will remain intact ie will you still be 'MysticPhD' as a conscious entity, ie will you remember who you were in this life, or will that consciousness be dispersed and your identity forgotten?
Does that make sense?
Have greatly enjoyed reading this thread although in many ways it is far past my feeble abilities to understand everything.
Whether heaven and hell are physical places or state of minds I don't really know.
The only thing I do know is that-- if Jim and I are together in some form after death, it will be heaven. If we are not, it will be hell.
Funny thing about my spirituality is that it has become more evident since we were married. Gotta believe that if there is a god, that god does not object to who we are and who we love.
A few questions for Christians only, starting with a poll to get going. Thanks.
A few things I'm curious about:
I get the impression that there are a growing number of Christians who no longer believe in the idea of hell but still believe in heaven. I'm happy to accept I might wrong about that, but it's just the impression I get from people on this forum.
If it is the case, that you believe in heaven but not hell, I'd like to understand what your justification would be for that? Because didn't Jesus himself believe in the idea of hell?
Also I'd like to understand - if you do still believe in heaven, what form does that take?
I ask because I saw an atheist derided on here once for thinking that Christians believe heaven is 'in the clouds'. I'm really not being facetious here, just that when I read that, that's genuinely what I also thought was the case - that Christians believe that the 'heavens' are somehow in the sky. So if not in the sky, then where?
If you don't believe in either heaven or hell or have another viewpoint, I'd like to hear about that too.
I hope people know me well enough to know I'm not here to make fun, I just want to better understand what Christians current perceptions of these issues are.
Thanks.
"Hell" is a mistranslation of several different Hebrew and Greek words. The word "Hell" is of Germanic origin and originally meant "to cover." One would hell their potatoes or hell the roof. Of if they were at a grave site and they were burying someone they would hell (cover the person with dirt) someone who had died.
Sheol is the Hebrew word for the grave and Hades is the Greek word for Sheol.
Gehenna is going to be a trash dump outside of Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ in Israel where fire and worms will consume the city trash. The worst criminals will have their dead bodies cast into Gehenna rather than be entombed. Some translations call all these different places "Hell."
The lake of fire is called "the second death." It is not living in torment. It is death.
So, while I believe all mankind EVENTUALLY will be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6), before that salvation occurs for all mankind, some will experience Sheol or Hades or the second death.
"Hell" is a mistranslation of several different Hebrew and Greek words. The word "Hell" is of Germanic origin and originally meant "to cover." One would hell their potatoes or hell the roof. Of if they were at a grave site and they were burying someone they would hell (cover the person with dirt) someone who had died.
Sheol is the Hebrew word for the grave and Hades is the Greek word for Sheol.
Gehenna is going to be a trash dump outside of Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ in Israel where fire and worms will consume the city trash. The worst criminals will have their dead bodies cast into Gehenna rather than be entombed. Some translations call all these different places "Hell."
The lake of fire is called "the second death." It is not living in torment. It is death.
So, while I believe all mankind EVENTUALLY will be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6), before that salvation occurs for all mankind, some will experience Sheol or Hades or the second death.
It has nothing to do with translation. Hell is a Jewish original concept. Read what is said in Josephus' works.
There are 3 schools of thoughts:
Nicenes:
They believe in absolute pre-destination, immortal soul, hell, angels and resurrection.
Pharisees:
They believe in immortal soul, hell, angels, resurrection, and a hybrid model of pre-destinatoin.
Sadducees:
They believe in no hell, no immortal soul, no angels and an absolute freewill.
At Jesus' time, majority of Jews in Palestine area are influenced mainly by the Pharisaic school of thought. They thus have no problem believing in concepts such as immortal soul, hell, angels and etc. Jesus thus has no difficulties in explaining to them a burning hell. He also used such concepts in His parables. A parable is to make use of the terms which can easily understandable to the audience to make obvious a less obvious point.
It has nothing to do with translation. Hell is a Jewish original concept. Read what is said in Josephus' works.
There are 3 schools of thoughts:
Nicenes:
They believe in absolute pre-destination, immortal soul, hell, angels and resurrection.
Pharisees:
They believe in immortal soul, hell, angels, resurrection, and a hybrid model of pre-destinatoin.
Sadducees:
They believe in no hell, no immortal soul, no angels and an absolute freewill.
At Jesus' time, majority of Jews in Palestine area are influenced mainly by the Pharisaic school of thought. They thus have no problem believing in concepts such as immortal soul, hell, angels and etc. Jesus thus has no difficulties in explaining to them a burning hell. He also used such concepts in His parables. A parable is to make use of the terms which can easily understandable to the audience to make obvious a less obvious point.
Jesus never taught a burning hell. The WORD "hell" is of Germanic origin.
It has everything to do with translation. I don't believe in """Hell""" but I do believe there are places like Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and the second death.
Just because people in Jesus' day improperly or properly believed in different matters, Jesus was always correcting them. It is more important to study the Scriptures since they are inspired rather than Josephus who is not. Yes, one can learn from Josephus but one should not import the beliefs of the people in Josephus' day into the Scriptures as if their beliefs formed the scriptures.
Jesus never taught a burning hell. The WORD "hell" is of Germanic origin.
It has everything to do with translation. I don't believe in """Hell""" but I do believe there are places like Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and the second death.
Just because people in Jesus' day improperly or properly believed in different matters, Jesus was always correcting them. It is more important to study the Scriptures since they are inspired rather than Josephus who is not. Yes, one can learn from Josephus but one should not import the beliefs of the people in Josephus' day into the Scriptures as if their beliefs formed the scriptures.
That remains your own speculation. In Jewish concept sheol/hades is a place to hold the immortal souls of humans. Jesus did mention that both death and Hades/sheol will be thrown to the Lake of Fire (which is a burning hell).
Hades is the Greek version of sheol. "Hell" as a word may have German origin or English origin. However, the concept of a burning sheol is not something new. In Hebrew language, it could possibly be "Gehenna" (said to be a place near Jerusalem with a fire burning trashes day and night). A more formal term used is the Lake of Fire.
That remains your own speculation. In Jewish concept sheol/hades is a place to hold the immortal souls of humans. Jesus did mention that both death and Hades/sheol will be thrown to the Lake of Fire (which is a burning hell).
Correct, Jesus spoke of both. Some translations translate Sheol/Hades=Hell, which I always found misleading because they are not the same thing. The Bible also mentions Tartarus.
That remains your own speculation. In Jewish concept sheol/hades is a place to hold the immortal souls of humans. Jesus did mention that both death and Hades/sheol will be thrown to the Lake of Fire (which is a burning hell).
Hades is the Greek version of sheol. Hell as word may have German origin or English origin. However, the concept of a burning sheol is not something new. In Hebrew language, it is possibly be Gehenna (said to be a place near Jerusalem with a fire burning trashes day and night). A more formal term used is the Lake of Fire.
The Bible never taught an immortal soul. That is just Platonic gibberish.
Not only that, but Jesus told His disciples to beware of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
That death and hades will be cast into the lake of fire is representative of all humans held by death and hades. You can't throw a concept into the lake of fire.
No one suffers in Gehenna, Their dead body is cast into the trash dump.
Isa 66:24 And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their
worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."
"Hell" is a mistranslation of several different Hebrew and Greek words. The word "Hell" is of Germanic origin and originally meant "to cover." One would hell their potatoes or hell the roof. Of if they were at a grave site and they were burying someone they would hell (cover the person with dirt) someone who had died.
Sheol is the Hebrew word for the grave and Hades is the Greek word for Sheol.
Gehenna is going to be a trash dump outside of Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Christ in Israel where fire and worms will consume the city trash. The worst criminals will have their dead bodies cast into Gehenna rather than be entombed. Some translations call all these different places "Hell."
The lake of fire is called "the second death." It is not living in torment. It is death.
So, while I believe all mankind EVENTUALLY will be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6), before that salvation occurs for all mankind, some will experience Sheol or Hades or the second death.
Actually the word HELL in our modern English stems from the OLD English 'helle', and means 'a world to come'. It indeed may have other roots but the point is that it is used in modern English to connote Hades, which is identified by Jesus in Luke 16:23 as a place of torment. Now Jesus used it in a physical sense, as the rich man states; have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ Spirits or souls obviously don't feel physical pain, so it was likely hyperbole to demonstrate a type of spiritual agony only able to be related to by physical metaphor.
As far as the Lake of Fire is concerned, it is a place where ALL souls will be punished eternally as Jesus states in Matt 25:41, which is confirmed in Rev 20:10. It is NOT hell, but it is where death and Hades will be swallowed up.
Universal salvation is not factual. Only those that Paul depicts as being saved in Rom 10:9-11 are saved and will inherit eternal life, IF they endure.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
