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If it is NOT, then Jesus did NOT say it. This is what Bible literalists refuse to understnad. There were lying Scribes, false teachers, false prophets and myriad and sundry other forces operating on the early Christians and ultimately on the compilation of the Bible. They affected what was considered canon and what was not. There were alterations by those who were charged ONLY with copying, but that did not seem to stop them. What you have to ask yourself, jimmie, is it credible that so many men with so many different agendas over so many centuries were somehow prevented from corrupting what Jesus actually taught and said??? I know you believe that God COULD magically do this. But given the contradictions and inconsistencies in the morality displayed by God and that taught and demonstrated by Jesus, you need to ask yourself what is the evidence that He actually DID.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
I love to see an example or two.
Luke 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
I have no difficulty at all envisioning some embittered old Monk estranged from his family and feeling miserable about his life imposing his feeling into the translation of this verse. Hate, no matter WHAT you say about it is never compatible with agape love, never.
It has nothing to do with "when it suits me." It has everything to do with when it is compatioble with the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God). You have been told this many times and still insist on lying about it. I doubt that is walking the walk Jesus trod.I reference the Sermon on the Mount as one of the many places Jesus describes the Spirit, so you are lying yet again. Why do you do that????
This agape love you speak of is your made up theology. Jesus never used the term agape love. It is a man made theology.
The son of mans love is the love of God which sinners cannot comprehend. This is why you do not understand. It is not your so called agape love.
As far as the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Is that a description of the Spirit?
Or is "the words I spoke to you are spirit" a description of the spirit? You cannot dance around it forever.
Speaking the truth, the word of God is not lying. You are a liar because you fail to use the word of God as Jesus instructed. Those who do not use the word of God are liars. I am the truth and the truth cannot lie.
Luke 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
I have no difficulty at all envisioning some embittered old Monk estranged from his family and feeling miserable about his life imposing his feeling into the translation of this verse. Hate, no matter WHAT you say about it is never compatible with agape love, never.
You really want to go with that example? It's quite easy to explain. Check the context. Read the remainder of the chapter.
Luke 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
I have no difficulty at all envisioning some embittered old Monk estranged from his family and feeling miserable about his life imposing his feeling into the translation of this verse. Hate, no matter WHAT you say about it is never compatible with agape love, never.
You are going with that old canard of context???? There is NO CONTEXT in which hate is compatible with agape love. The emotion of hate is entirely destructive to the person harboring it and to anyone who is the target of it. There is nothing ambiguous about hate and no context can remove its destructiveness and negativity. Jesus would NOT have used the word, period. Hate is an entirely human emotion devoid of agape love.
You are going with that old canard of context???? There is NO CONTEXT in which hate is compatible with agape love. The emotion of hate is entirely destructive to the person harboring it and to anyone who is the target of it. There is nothing ambiguous about hate and no context can remove its destructiveness and negativity. Jesus would NOT have used the word, period. Hate is an entirely human emotion devoid of agape love.
Surely a person with a PhD understands context. I'm surprised you so easily brush it aside.
Read the rest of the chapter and you will see that Jesus is explaining the high cost of discipleship, perhaps even costing a person their family.
I had a friend back in the 70's who was a messianic Jew. His faith cost him his family. He was willing to give that up to follow Christ.
You are going with that old canard of context???? There is NO CONTEXT in which hate is compatible with agape love. The emotion of hate is entirely destructive to the person harboring it and to anyone who is the target of it. There is nothing ambiguous about hate and no context can remove its destructiveness and negativity. Jesus would NOT have used the word, period. Hate is an entirely human emotion devoid of agape love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Surely a person with a PhD understands context. I'm surprised you so easily brush it aside.
Read the rest of the chapter and you will see that Jesus is explaining the high cost of discipleship, perhaps even costing a person their family.
I had a friend back in the 70's who was a messianic Jew. His faith cost him his family. He was willing to give that up to follow Christ.
I have no doubt Jesus said this.
Hate is unambiguous and it can never be attributed to Jesus or God, nor would Jesus tell us to hate anyone for any reason. He repeatedly instructed His disciples to LOVE God and each other. There is no room in LOVE for hate. You can believe Jesus said this because you accept the Bible as inerrant and your "precepts and doctrines of men" about a wrathful God support it. But the God of Christ would never countenance any such hate for any reason.
Hate is unambiguous and it can never be attributed to Jesus or God, nor would Jesus tell us to hate anyone for any reason. He repeatedly instructed His disciples to LOVE God and each other. There is no room in LOVE for hate. You can believe Jesus said this because you accept the Bible as inerrant and your "precepts and doctrines of men" about a wrathful God support it. But the God of Christ would never countenance any such hate for any reason.
Obviously, you didn't read the link. Oh well, "you can lead a horse to water..."
The Holy Spirit aka comforter ( Jesus' quote) is the spirit of God ( transcribed from Greek as "HE") giving over to a male gender as God claiming to be "father " gives male the ticket alone with Gods image in Jesus (again male) . " Let US. Make Man ( mankind?) In OUR image). It leaves out a female ( our), but if one examines Gods neutrality the Godhead has room for a female manifestation in Hebrew Ruach Ha' Kodesh (wind, breath Holy Spirit) . So I suggest the comforter (Holy Spirit) to be female? Perhaps just not taught this as we rely on the Greeks translation. ...he....hmmmmm.
Hate is unambiguous and it can never be attributed to Jesus or God, nor would Jesus tell us to hate anyone for any reason. He repeatedly instructed His disciples to LOVE God and each other. There is no room in LOVE for hate. You can believe Jesus said this because you accept the Bible as inerrant and your "precepts and doctrines of men" about a wrathful God support it. But the God of Christ would never countenance any such hate for any reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Obviously, you didn't read the link. Oh well, "you can lead a horse to water..."
I did read it (and many other such apologetics). The arguments are largely fallacious and contrived. The biggest contextual mistake is the one that interprets everything using the OT context of a wrathful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices instead of the God revealed by Jesus as the God who IS agape love.
This agape love you speak of is your made up theology. Jesus never used the term agape love. It is a man made theology.
The son of mans love is the love of God which sinners cannot comprehend. This is why you do not understand. It is not your so called agape love.
As far as the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Is that a description of the Spirit?
Or is "the words I spoke to you are spirit" a description of the spirit? You cannot dance around it forever.
Speaking the truth, the word of God is not lying. You are a liar because you fail to use the word of God as Jesus instructed. Those who do not use the word of God are liars. I am the truth and the truth cannot lie.
I don't think you know what agape love is by saying Jesus didn't use it.
He did here:
John 15:12-13
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."
That wasn't Eros love or Philia love it was AGAPE love.
He even states God' love is Agape, His own love is Agape, and that we must abide in that Agape love. We can't thrive nor live a Christian life without it.
John 15:9
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
Again here, Jesus speaks of Agape love:
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
He actually COMMANDED US to have Agape love.
Methinks you may not be listening to Jesus nor the Spirit. Those were HIS words that someone wrote with ink on parchment. Nothing men want to reject more than Agape love for others. They will state they have accepted Christ but not make a single effort toward Agape love for others. Without the same Agape love Jesus practiced and commanded us to practice toward one another, the man made religion of putting "God first" while not even putting others on the same page controls self satisfied souls.
By their fruits you shall know them. Agape love is the ONLY fruit of the Spirit. And that is the truth being spoken to you.
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