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twin.spin: Actually, they are not the same essence as defined by a role of Jesus will always be one of subservience to His Father.
I was coming from what is confessed in the Athanasian Creed which I thought you'd pick up on thus I knew what you meant as essence but wanting it quite clear that our understanding of essence is not agreeing with any other understanding of an alternative "essence".
What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit. in so far as:
The Father \ the Son \ the Holy Spirit are uncreated;
the Father \ the Son \ the Holy Spirit are infinite;
the Father \ the Son \ the Holy Spirit are eternal;
The Father \ the Son \ the Holy Spirit is almighty,
So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
In other words, there isn't a subservient "essence" Jesus God
I gotcha. I honestly don't know the Athanasian Creed very well. I don't come from a background where we really confessed creeds, and I will admit to being a little inadequate in regards to church history.
No, not created but rather came forth from the inner being of the Father from which He has always been to the external like as a word comes from our innermost being to the world outside. In similar fashion a word is called a word when it is spoken or written but it still exit within beforehand as thought. God's thoughts become His Words when He speaks them and collectively Christ is the Word come to earth in human form.
Jesus came forth as the Word because He was spoken into the external and thus called the beginning of the creation of God as in meaning starting creation and finishing it. It is what Alpha and Omega mean/I am/all of existence/the true reality.
RESPONSE:
If what you claim is true, than Jesus and the Father cannot be "Coequal" You have described a difference between them. (Unless you are also going to state that God came forth from the inner being of Jesus. Are you?)
Consubstantial, Coeternal, Coequal or different?
Last edited by Aristotle's Child; 02-23-2016 at 12:43 PM..
Reason: typo
If what you claim is true, than Jesus and the Father cannot be "Coequal" You have described a difference between them. (Unless you are also going to state that God came forth from the inner being of Jesus. Are you?)
Consubstantial, Coeternal, Coequal or different?
I think Human language has it's limitations to express fully what God as Us means. After all, it is called the "the great mystery." and "without controversy" because it is what it is and hard to express.
Only God has the ability to give meditations on the matter that will satisfy a soul. My attempts to so are feeble and will not satisfy everyone and so I do not have the last word on the matter.
Certainly all that Jesus thought, said and did was God as a human being but because of that limitation to time and space like as we are, Jesus said that the Father was greater. So only in this sense is the Father greater but that does not mean that Christ is of less character/righteous and in fact He is equal in character to the Father. Remember this also, apart from Christ being confined to a body He is also the Word that created and upholds all of creation in omnipresent form via His Spirit.
That relationship of Father to Son is the model as to how God in the beginning wanted to fellowship with mankind. That is to say, God's nature in us to God Himself. God can only fellowship with His own nature and to the rest He show mercy, toleration, and patience but no direct fellowship because of sin.
Christ is the God Man but mankind was made with freewill and with an ability to sin but Christ was manifest with the exact quality of nature that could not sin/impossible to sin, so as to be the only savior of the world.
Yes. He is superior to me in the hierarchy, but not ontologically.
The NIV translates it as "being". It's hard to come up with a solid word for it, but it's clear from the text that they are not 2 distinct Gods.
They are separate persons, with individual wills. They are not the same person -- just as you and I are not the same person. We each have our own will. The difference though, is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all the same God and they are all the same being.
Gods word teaches---- The Father sent Jesus( John 5:30)-- do you believe this?
Jesus taught-- John 17:1-6,26---- the one who sent him is- THE ONLY TRUE GOD.--and one must know him and know Jesus to get eternal life( one doesn't have to know the HS though--Why if they are all equal)
verse 6= YHWH(Jehovah) , 26 = YHWH(Jehovah)
So the wise path to choose in every step is believe Jesus over mens dogma-EVERYTIME. Because Jesus warned all about this at John 15:20-21-- that they do not know the one who sent him.
Proof there is no trinity---John 1:1----- 2nd line--simple trinity talk= God was with God--- how many Gods does that make?
Rev 3:12---- simple English trinity talk-- God has a God--How can God have a God?
Gods word teaches---- The Father sent Jesus( John 5:30)-- do you believe this?
Of course.
Quote:
Jesus taught-- John 17:1-6,26---- the one who sent him is- THE ONLY TRUE GOD.--and one must know him and know Jesus to get eternal life( one doesn't have to know the HS though--Why if they are all equal)
verse 6= YHWH(Jehovah) , 26 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Stating that God the Father is God and the ONLY true God does not suggest that God the Son is not also God.
Quote:
So the wise path to choose in every step is believe Jesus over mens dogma-EVERYTIME. Because Jesus warned all about this at John 15:20-21-- that they do not know the one who sent him.
I agree. So why don't you believe Jesus when he claimed to be God?
Quote:
Proof there is no trinity---John 1:1----- 2nd line--simple trinity talk= God was with God--- how many Gods does that make?
It doesn't say that God was with God. It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Quote:
Rev 3:12---- simple English trinity talk-- God has a God--How can God have a God?
Do you realize that 2 chapters earlier the same person states that He is God Himself, the Alpha and Omega? Do you realize that 2 chapters later he is worshiped as God?
Weird, huh? How do you explain that? Perhaps Rev 3:12 is not really stating that Jesus isn't God.
Him that overcometh will I (Jesus) make a pillar in the temple of "MY" God, and he shall go no more out: and I (Jesus) will writer upon him the name of "MY" God, and the name of the city of "MY" God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heave from "MY" God and I (Jesus) will write upon him "MY" new name.
KJV Revelation 3:14 B
.......the 'faithful and true witness' the beginning of the creation of God
KJV Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the 'faithful witness' and the first begotten of the dead......
Stating that God the Father is God and the ONLY true God does not suggest that God the Son is not also God.
I agree. So why don't you believe Jesus when he claimed to be God?
It doesn't say that God was with God. It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Do you realize that 2 chapters earlier the same person states that He is God Himself, the Alpha and Omega? Do you realize that 2 chapters later he is worshiped as God?
Weird, huh? How do you explain that? Perhaps Rev 3:12 is not really stating that Jesus isn't God.
The deception lies in the fact that trinity translators erred giving worship to Jesus. In trinity translations--they have people bowing in worship to a mortal Jesus, who was made-lower than the angels-Heb 2:7-9)
Gods word is 100% clear--not even angels get worship-thus not one lower than an angel gets worship either--so they are wrong in translation. It is deceiving many.
The greek word-proskenau( spelled wrong) carries 5 different meanings from greek to English--1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king-plus 3 others-- they bowed in obeisance to Jesus, not worship. Trinity translations are erred to fit false council teachings.
When men completely ignorant about consciousness tried to reconcile the "precepts and doctrines of men" about Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit that had been created out of human vanity and hubris. They eventually gave up trying to reconcile their ignorance and proclaimed it a mystery. They have been trying to defend it ever since.
I gotcha. I honestly don't know the Athanasian Creed very well. I don't come from a background where we really confessed creeds, and I will admit to being a little inadequate in regards to church history.
That's the least common (and longest--people complain that the Nicene is too long) creed out of the 3 major creeds of the early church. The Apostles Creed is well known from the Rosary, but it's more properly used in its original place in the baptismal rite. The Nicene, most common, is mandatory on Sundays, optional on liturgical weekdays, to testify against the Arian heresy.
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