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Exactly. I didn't believe what was written in a book; I had never even read the book prior to believing. What I believed was what was done to me, in my heart, that was like a stone being thrown into a lake, with ripples going out in every part of me.
And AFTER THAT, 4 days later of what turned into a 10 day experience, I was told and then found in a book I had never read, what had happened to me on day 1 in a personal singular period of crying out to an unknown G-d (unknown to me).
It's not about what you read, it's about what you experience that no man can do to you, or you do to yourself. Every man is given a measure of faith to receive Him. The only measure required is to cry out to Him ONE TIME. Just that much faith, is all it took, and I was never the same from that day forth. And it is more valuable than diamonds, rubies or gold; nothing can compare. Peace
ME TOO! What I do not get is why those ripples did not scream UNCONDITIONAL LOVE instead of strict adherence to LAW, DOGMA, and PIETY.... smh
ME TOO! What I do not get is why those ripples did not scream UNCONDITIONAL LOVE instead of strict adherence to LAW, DOGMA, and PIETY.... smh
Maybe because I got in the book and the language for 2 years alone, and sought the WHOLE counsel of G-d instead of leaning on my own understanding from my carnal mind which is death, and said teach me, HS. Or I could have just had the initial infilling only and tried to build it according to what I thought and felt instead of making according to the pattern shown on the mount.
The mount we are to look to, btw, had MOSES AND ELIJAH, the law and the prophets, that were used to form the Christ Seed that was standing in between them. Take away one or the other, and you've lost the pattern and what you've made won't stand. Peace
ME TOO! What I do not get is why those ripples did not scream UNCONDITIONAL LOVE instead of strict adherence to LAW, DOGMA, and PIETY.... smh
They DID for anyone who actually encountered the Spirit of God. I would be very concerned about any spirit I encountered that didn't scream unconditional love, Zthatz!
Show me something outside of the Bible... and oh yeah - the guy outside of the Bible that mentioned it, he doesn't count.
Actually - this also proves another of the statements I have made.
When the Bible shows a difference in some of the details - you say it's flawed because of contradictions.
When Josephus' account agrees with the biblical content - you say it's flawed because he copied their accounts.
It's a no win scenario that you have built up in your own mind. Just admit you don't want to believe, and move on with your life and enjoy the rest of your existence on the earth.
I love it too. Never fails.
Me: just show me one secular historian contemporary with Jesus (or within 90 years of his birth--I'm giving you greater latitude here, I hope you realize, but I want someone in the first half century) Again: show me even ONE secular historian within Jesus' time who mentions his name and I will believe in Jesus in a heartbeat.
You: "Gotta love it. These non-believers will never change. ALL they want is someone secular who saw or wrote about Jesus within 50 years of his death. Why don't they ask for the moon while they're at it? As if the Bible isn't all the proof they would ever need. But no, the Bible isn't good enough for them, being the most accurate historical documents ever to come out of that period. Land sakes almighty, if we could give them one historian they still wouldn't be satisfied; if we could give them TWO secular historians they still wouldn't be satisfied, or three, or four or four hundred. They'll never be satisfied no matter how many secular historians we produce so why should we bother to produce even one. It's a lose-lose deal for us."
Rob, you're too intelligent a guy to put forth such a feeble defense. You and I and everybody else, except your good buddies in the fundamentalist crowd, knows that Josephus passage is as phony as a 3-dollar bill, jimmied up by the Roman Catholics to bolster belief in Jesus:
Quote:
[LEFT] [CENTER]The Account of Josephus is a Fraud[/CENTER]
[LEFT]When discussing the alleged existence of Jesus Christ, one piece of "evidence" that frequently gets mentioned is the account of Flavius Josephus, the famed Jewish general and historian who lived from 37 to 100 C.E. In Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews there is a notorious passage regarding Christ called the "Testimonium Flavium."[/LEFT]
[LEFT]"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Whitson, 379).
[/LEFT]
[LEFT]This brief piece of evidence which supposedly contributed the best "proof" of Jesus's existence has actually been proven to be a fraud. It has been demonstrated continuously over the centuries that "Testamonium Flavium" was a forgery manufactured by the Catholic Church, and was inserted into Josephus's works. The Testamonium Flavium account is so thoroughly refuted, that biblical scholars since the 19th century have refused to refer to it, unless to mention its false nature.
Name me one secular historian in the first half of the 1st century who mentions Jesus' resurrection and I will convert back to Christianity in a heartbeat.
Rob, you're too intelligent a guy to put forth such a feeble defense. You and I and everybody else, except your good buddies in the fundamentalist crowd, knows that Josephus passage is as phony as a 3-dollar bill, jimmied up by the Roman Catholics to bolster belief in Jesus:
Once again, more simple this time:
Name me one secular historian in the first half of the 1st century who mentions Jesus' resurrection and I will convert back to Christianity in a heartbeat.
It wasn't a defense. I was showing you what you do. The Bible is unbelievable. The historian is unbelievable.
Just keep moving the line to your liking... just understand that it's hard to hit a moving target.
Let me add this as well... if there was anyone who saw and believed in Jesus' resurrection, they would no longer be secular.
Me: just show me one secular historian contemporary with Jesus (or within 90 years of his birth--I'm giving you greater latitude here, I hope you realize, but I want someone in the first half century) Again: show me even ONE secular historian within Jesus' time who mentions his name and I will believe in Jesus in a heartbeat.
You: "Gotta love it. These non-believers will never change. ALL they want is someone secular who saw or wrote about Jesus within 50 years of his death. Why don't they ask for the moon while they're at it? As if the Bible isn't all the proof they would ever need. But no, the Bible isn't good enough for them, being the most accurate historical documents ever to come out of that period. Land sakes almighty, if we could give them one historian they still wouldn't be satisfied; if we could give them TWO secular historians they still wouldn't be satisfied, or three, or four or four hundred. They'll never be satisfied no matter how many secular historians we produce so why should we bother to produce even one. It's a lose-lose deal for us."
Rob, you're too intelligent a guy to put forth such a feeble defense. You and I and everybody else, except your good buddies in the fundamentalist crowd, knows that Josephus passage is as phony as a 3-dollar bill, jimmied up by the Roman Catholics to bolster belief in Jesus:
Once again, more simple this time:
Name me one secular historian in the first half of the 1st century who mentions Jesus' resurrection and I will convert back to Christianity in a heartbeat.
That my well be a fraud by the RCC thrill, but this one was proven to be written by Josephus.
Josephus states:
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:
That my well be a fraud by the RCC thrill, but this one was proven to be written by Josephus.
Josephus states:
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:
We're talking about evidence for the resurrection, not whether Jesus lived or was mythical. I've admitted there is a very good chance he was a real person or a composite of many Jesuses wandering the hills of Palestine who were doing miracles, preaching, talking of the end of the world and a better one to come. Life under Roman rule was harsh and Jews were dreaming of a world free of Roman rule, just like Christians do today who lead miserable lives and dream of being raptured out of here and going to heaven where they'll live in total happiness forever. Nothing has changed in 2000 years.
But Josephus' passage says nothing about a resurrection of someone named Jesus. That's what we're looking for---some secular writer who witnessed some of these supernatural events and wrote about them. Certainly Philo of Alexandria, one of the most respected historians contemporary with Jesus who was in or around Palestine for much of the time Jesus supposedly was there would have heard of this Jesus and mentioned him in his writings. But why do we have to wait until approx. 100 CE before we get the first mention of him and nothing about a resurrection, just a crucifixion. Your problem is you see mention of a crucifixion by Josephus and automatically you jump to the conclusion,
"Well, if Josephus mentions crucifixion then Jesus certainly must have resurrected."
You do that because you've been programed from the cradle that Jesus rose from the dead so your mind cannot jump to any other possibilities, like maybe he died and rotted. I believed the same thing from the cradle myself until a few years ago and I'm 66 and I only changed my thinking after a few years of reading the literature against the resurrection, putting it against the evidence for the resurrection and deciding the position against the resurrection is much MUCH stronger than for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
It wasn't a defense. I was showing you what you do. The Bible is unbelievable. The historian is unbelievable.
Just keep moving the line to your liking... just understand that it's hard to hit a moving target.
Let me add this as well... if there was anyone who saw and believed in Jesus' resurrection, they would no longer be secular.
Rob, if I saw a resurrected Jesus I would believe too. And Jesus could solve the problem for the entire world tomorrow with one appearance. But he chooses to leave the disbelievers in disbelief. And he chooses to let millions of erstwhile Christians just walk away from their faith and into agnosticism or atheism. Please explain to me why? Free will again? Or is it the blessing of having faith? Faith, remember, is belief when there IS no evidence.
We're talking about evidence for the resurrection, not whether Jesus lived or was mythical. I've admitted there is a very good chance he was a real person or a composite of many Jesuses wandering the hills of Palestine who were doing miracles, preaching, talking of the end of the world and a better one to come. Life under Roman rule was harsh and Jews were dreaming of a world free of Roman rule, just like Christians do today who lead miserable lives and dream of being raptured out of here and going to heaven where they'll live in total happiness forever. Nothing has changed in 2000 years.
But Josephus' passage says nothing about a resurrection of someone named Jesus. That's what we're looking for---some secular writer who witnessed some of these supernatural events and wrote about them. Certainly Philo of Alexandria, one of the most respected historians contemporary with Jesus who was in or around Palestine for much of the time Jesus supposedly was there would have heard of this Jesus and mentioned him in his writings. But why do we have to wait until approx. 100 CE before we get the first mention of him and nothing about a resurrection, just a crucifixion. Your problem is you see mention of a crucifixion by Josephus and automatically you jump to the conclusion,
"Well, if Josephus mentions crucifixion then Jesus certainly must have resurrected."
You do that because you've been programed from the cradle that Jesus rose from the dead so your mind cannot jump to any other possibilities, like maybe he died and rotted. I believed the same thing from the cradle myself until a few years ago and I'm 66 and I only changed my thinking after a few years of reading the literature against the resurrection, putting it against the evidence for the resurrection and deciding the position against the resurrection is much MUCH stronger than for it.
Rob, if I saw a resurrected Jesus I would believe too. And Jesus could solve the problem for the entire world tomorrow with one appearance. But he chooses to leave the disbelievers in disbelief. And he chooses to let millions of erstwhile Christians just walk away from their faith and into agnosticism or atheism. Please explain to me why? Free will again? Or is it the blessing of having faith? Faith, remember, is belief when there IS no evidence.
Did you catch that part pneuma quoted of Josephus that said HE WAS CALLED CHRIST. Christ was not His name, it was His title, and was the Spirit SEED of G-d, the messiah of Israel. That connotes that He was called that because HE AROSE, because they didn't worship dead men, it was against the law. Peace
Did you catch that part pneuma quoted of Josephus that said HE WAS CALLED CHRIST. Christ was not His name, it was His title, and was the Spirit SEED of G-d, the messiah of Israel. That connotes that He was called that because HE AROSE, because they didn't worship dead men, it was against the law. Peace
But they were allowed to worship living men? Piece
We're talking about evidence for the resurrection, not whether Jesus lived or was mythical. I've admitted there is a very good chance he was a real person or a composite of many Jesuses wandering the hills of Palestine who were doing miracles, preaching, talking of the end of the world and a better one to come. Life under Roman rule was harsh and Jews were dreaming of a world free of Roman rule, just like Christians do today who lead miserable lives and dream of being raptured out of here and going to heaven where they'll live in total happiness forever. Nothing has changed in 2000 years.
Sorry thrill but that is NOT what you asked, You asked this
Quote:
Me: just show me one secular historian contemporary with Jesus (or within 90 years of his birth--I'm giving you greater latitude here, I hope you realize, but I want someone in the first half century) Again: show me even ONE secular historian within Jesus' time who mentions his name and I will believe in Jesus in a heartbeat.
I did that and now you want something else. go figure.
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