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If you have an issue with me being a Christian who is also a lesbian, I suggest you take it up with Jesus. Our relationship is ours and ours alone, and I refuse to allow anyone - whether it be you or "answersingenesis" or anyone else - to define it for us. You can believe what you want about our relationship, I'm past caring. But I demand that you stop saying what I have with Him isn't real, or authentic. My relationship with Christ is ours alone, I'm telling you as kindly as I can to keep yourself out of it. You don't get to judge the content of my heart, or my relationship with Christ. You are not qualified.
It's nice to see somebody else slam the "gays have chosen the evil path" loons with that wonderful question - it's one of my favorites. It's fun to confront a religious fundie with that one after they are done spouting off about how gays "have made an evil choice to sin against God" or some ignorant drivel. Ask them when they chose to be straight; they can't answer it. They'll spin round and round about their first crush or whatever, but they cannot answer the question because it's been scientifically proven time and again that people's sexual urges are programmed based on their brain development and chemistry.
Nobody in the history of humanity has ever gone home one day during adolescence and run a comparative study on whether they should be straight or gay. Nobody has ever chosen to be gay to "get back at their parents" or "mock God," or whatever other nutty reasons the far-right will spew. No gays have ever "corrupted innocent straight people" to turn gay because that's not how it works. If social pressure could change a person's sexual preferences, nobody would be gay. Everybody would prefer one of a handful of socially acceptable forms of straight sex and that would be it. So, the notion of people "choosing to be gay" is absurd, as is the notion of people "corrupting others to be gay."
Unfortunately, everything I stated above requires the use of facts and reason, so it won't have an effect on religious extremists. Still, it is at least fun to ask them the question "when did they choose to be straight?" and watch them stammer and spin until they change the subject... lol.
I agree, mental gymnastics is almost as fun to watch as the Olympic kind.
It's nice to see somebody else slam the "gays have chosen the evil path" loons with that wonderful question - it's one of my favorites. It's fun to confront a religious fundie with that one after they are done spouting off about how gays "have made an evil choice to sin against God" or some ignorant drivel. Ask them when they chose to be straight; they can't answer it. They'll spin round and round about their first crush or whatever, but they cannot answer the question because it's been scientifically proven time and again that people's sexual urges are programmed based on their brain development and chemistry.
Nobody in the history of humanity has ever gone home one day during adolescence and run a comparative study on whether they should be straight or gay. Nobody has ever chosen to be gay to "get back at their parents" or "mock God," or whatever other nutty reasons the far-right will spew. No gays have ever "corrupted innocent straight people" to turn gay because that's not how it works. If social pressure could change a person's sexual preferences, nobody would be gay. Everybody would prefer one of a handful of socially acceptable forms of straight sex and that would be it. So, the notion of people "choosing to be gay" is absurd, as is the notion of people "corrupting others to be gay."
Unfortunately, everything I stated above requires the use of facts and reason, so it won't have an effect on religious extremists. Still, it is at least fun to ask them the question "when did they choose to be straight?" and watch them stammer and spin until they change the subject... lol.
While geekigurl can speak for herself I think there are certain Christians who frustrate her to the extent where she naturally hits back. I would probably do the same. In fact YOU frustrate me somewhat, 99, because my posts to you have so far been ignored. See below.
This is a case in point. I've previously asked you to present any scripture that states unequivocally that "homosexuality is a sin". So far you have not done so but you still keep using the same old line. Any chance you can be polite and respond to this?
What does the Bible really state about homosexuality, 99, and in what context?
Well, I don't know about the Old Testament God. He's little more than a cruel tyrant and you must know that unless you're afraid to admit it as most Christians appear to be. Jesus, however, is someone many of us can relate to. I'm sure that He would be fine with, as you say, same sex monogamous romantic relationships.
Anyway, would you, please, present scripture that states "homosexuality is a sin"? I can't find such a passage in my Bible but it MUST be there some place because Christians spout that catch-call constantly!
Both the old testaments and new testaments God is not different and his love and his wrath is revealed in both. I have read a huge proportion of the Old and new Testament and that is true.
In the Old testament, Old Testament, God is declared to be a “compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,” (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31; Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5, 15; 108:4; 145:8; Joel 2:13). Netherless in the New Testament it demonstrates God love for the world in John 3:16.
Throughout the Old Testament, we also see God dealing with Israel the same way a loving father deals with a child. When they willfully sinned against Him and began to worship idols, God would punish them. Yet, each time He would deliver them once they had repented of their idolatry. (Look at the book of Judges to find out) This is much the same way God deals with Christians in the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 12:6 tells us that “the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
At first I thought that the Old testament portrayed a judgemental God before I seriously started to study it, and there is ample evidence he is a loving God there and scriptures there speak volumes of that.
Also the Old testament speaks volumes of a coming Messiah. Christians believe Jesus is the one. Jews do not, but one day all Jews will know Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Also the Lord created the Law (Ten Commandments) in order to point us our sins. Jesus mission was not to abolish the law but fulfil it.
God of the Old testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. In addition Jesus is God in the Flesh: John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” https://gotquestions.org/God-different.html
In regards to homosexuality, the Bible does not speak of Homosexuality much but it clearly mentions it a sin.
Homosexuality has a heavy judgment administered by God Himself upon those who commit it and support it.
Romans 1:26-27, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
I know what gay affirming Christians have to say about that verse as I have studied both views and due to my background. It does not talk about hetrosexual man or woman having an homosexual experience. The other verses in the bible on Homosexuality speak beyond than of temple prostitution and, and condemns the act. The Bible never positively mentions same sex romantic couples. Homosexuality is not natural and not fruitful.
God created sex, and even the bible speaks volumes on sex, in addition the first humans on Earth were naked. There is even a book in the Old testament that speaks of it a lot as well as romance. The Even so, the bible speaks of sex and romance in a positive way to opposite sex married couples, not to same sex couples.
Christians are routinely portrayed as bigots, narrow-minded idiots, hypocrites, and worse. Why?* Because there are little tolerance and equality from the left for those who disagree with them.* The social attitude of the West is slowly being engineered to accept liberal sexual behaviour while condemning and silencing those who disagree. The Bible and homosexuality | What the Bible says about Homosexuality
There is hope for the homosexual, as there is life there is hope. Just like a person like me who I was one was. Our lives are short and in the next life sadly there be so many people that will have deep regret, due to the false beliefs and teaching they got or their desires or love their sins too much and refusing to repent and have the Lord Jesus Christ as saviour in their life, and they will see that people like me were right all along.
Nice of you to simply ignore my last post. I shall write another one all the same for the benefit of others, if not for yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
Christians are routinely portrayed as bigots, narrow-minded idiots, hypocrites, and worse. Why?*
For me what is indicative of bigotry and narrow mindedness is when someone holds a position AGAINST the lives or actions of others for no discernible reason. The distinction is made not just by pointing at someone who hates, say, homosexuals and screaming "bigot" at them.
The distinction is made by sitting down with the people who have such issues and exploring their basis. And if a coherent basis for their position can be discerned then I would withhold the term "bigot" from them.
But on threads like this we see people against homosexuality because it is personally "ick" to them. We see people against it because of some arbitrary, and entirely selectively applied criteria like "Well they can not reproduce".
We have people going on about "the homosexual act" without being able AT ALL to even define what that is. Observe what happened when we asked that user to name a SINGLE "act" that homosexuals do that heterosexuals do not. What happened? Dodge, invective and then retreat. No answer was given.
THAT is bigotry. THAT is hate. And THAT is the projection of ones own personal disgust and judgement onto the discourse or ethics and morality as if there should be a 1:1 mapping between them.
And a lot of those people bring Christianity down with them.... because as soon as they realize that have no coherent, mature, persuasive, or substantive arguments against homosexuality..... they instantly, and consistently, retreat behind essentially saying "Well god agrees with me and who are you to argue with god?".
No way. No how. No thanks. Anyone desperate to have the label "bigot" with held from application can do it very easily. Merely sit down and answer the simplest question. "Is there any coherent moral or ethical arguments I can offer to indict homosexuality?"
And, your performance and the performance of others across this forum give a firm, loud and resounding "NO!" as an answer to this question.
I do not wish to appear cold or uncaring however. You genuinely have my sympathy that your experiences with your own homosexual nature were not good ones. That you find more peace and contentment in repression of your true self may be a fact, but it is a tragic one.
And if Christianity is the crutch that allows you to achieve this, so be it. But NONE of that.... not just not most..... not just very little..... but NONE of it is relevant to homosexuality, the morals or ethics of homosexual unions, or the reality and utility of homosexual marriage. It is simply an entirely irrelevant narrative that provides little more than filler.
Further to that none of the issues you describe are in any way relevant to homosexuality per se. Every emotion, struggle, issues with porn, self doubt, depression and other aspect of it you have described.......... have their mirror in the heterosexual community too. With people there suffering every bit as much as you, in every bit the same way as you, for every bit the same reasons. You bring them up in the context of homosexuality, but that context distorts the reality and relevance of what you describe.
Nice of you to simply ignore my last post. I shall write another one all the same for the benefit of others, if not for yours.
For me what is indicative of bigotry and narrow mindedness is when someone holds a position AGAINST the lives or actions of others for no discernible reason. The distinction is made not just by pointing at someone who hates, say, homosexuals and screaming "bigot" at them.
The distinction is made by sitting down with the people who have such issues and exploring their basis. And if a coherent basis for their position can be discerned then I would withhold the term "bigot" from them.
But on threads like this we see people against homosexuality because it is personally "ick" to them. We see people against it because of some arbitrary, and entirely selectively applied criteria like "Well they can not reproduce".
We have people going on about "the homosexual act" without being able AT ALL to even define what that is. Observe what happened when we asked that user to name a SINGLE "act" that homosexuals do that heterosexuals do not. What happened? Dodge, invective and then retreat. No answer was given.
THAT is bigotry. THAT is hate. And THAT is the projection of ones own personal disgust and judgement onto the discourse or ethics and morality as if there should be a 1:1 mapping between them.
And a lot of those people bring Christianity down with them.... because as soon as they realize that have no coherent, mature, persuasive, or substantive arguments against homosexuality..... they instantly, and consistently, retreat behind essentially saying "Well god agrees with me and who are you to argue with god?".
No way. No how. No thanks. Anyone desperate to have the label "bigot" with held from application can do it very easily. Merely sit down and answer the simplest question. "Is there any coherent moral or ethical arguments I can offer to indict homosexuality?"
And, your performance and the performance of others across this forum give a firm, loud and resounding "NO!" as an answer to this question.
I do not wish to appear cold or uncaring however. You genuinely have my sympathy that your experiences with your own homosexual nature were not good ones. That you find more peace and contentment in repression of your true self may be a fact, but it is a tragic one.
And if Christianity is the crutch that allows you to achieve this, so be it. But NONE of that.... not just not most..... not just very little..... but NONE of it is relevant to homosexuality, the morals or ethics of homosexual unions, or the reality and utility of homosexual marriage. It is simply an entirely irrelevant narrative that provides little more than filler.
Further to that none of the issues you describe are in any way relevant to homosexuality per se. Every emotion, struggle, issues with porn, self doubt, depression and other aspect of it you have described.......... have their mirror in the heterosexual community too. With people there suffering every bit as much as you, in every bit the same way as you, for every bit the same reasons. You bring them up in the context of homosexuality, but that context distorts the reality and relevance of what you describe.
I will respond to you. I admit I loved the sin when I was a homosexual. It was not icky. I know that gay people do love their sexual experiences.
Even so I was a different person then, and I so much craved for sexual experiences and the more the better.
Yet for me when I look back at it, I see I am disgusted on what I did there. I now look at it with regret and sorrow. I also have hurt guys there too. For me when I look back now it was not worth it.
For me I see as the bible as a major guide and influence in my life now. Of course the Lord and the Holy spirit has also really influenced and changed me. Overall it is the work of the Lord in my life that really changed and shaped me to be the type of person today.
Even so I still get tempted and yes I can notice a very good looking guy, but even so it does not mean I lust after him. Yet when I was a homosexual that was the case. I do not even crave sex anymore, yet when I was homosexual it was very, very often.
I rather live by God standards as demonstrated in his word (Bible) rather than what the secular world has to say in regards to sexuality.
Even so I was a different person then, and I so much craved for sexual experiences and the more the better.
And that was entirely your failing, not that of homosexuality. Some people are permiscuous. some people have sexual addictions. Some people have porn addictions. Perhaps you had all three. These are your issues, and your failings, and are entirely irrelevant to the topic of Same Sex Marriage, and the morals and ethics pertaining to homosexuality.
You would do well to not only recognize this distinction, but start applying it to your prose and diatribes on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
Yet for me when I look back at it, I see I am disgusted on what I did there. I now look at it with regret and sorrow. I also have hurt guys there too. For me when I look back now it was not worth it.
But it was not homosexuality that was "not worth it". It was your own poor self control and other failings that were the issue here. You keep bringing them up as if you are implying, explicitly or implicitly, some link to the topic at hand. There is no such link. And there are people like you in both the homosexual, and heterosexual, communities.
Your failings are not the failings of homosexuality. Your issues are not the issues of homosexuality. Homosexuality, and homosexual unions.... sexual, marital or both.... are entirely innocent of the failings you have or had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99
I rather live by God standards as demonstrated in his word (Bible) rather than what the secular world has to say in regards to sexuality.
And as I keep saying, if this god is a rational god.... and I am told often it is meant to be.......... then there should be rational arguments behind this gods position on the matter. If there were such arguments then the "secular world" and your "theist world" would be in agreement on the subject.
Agreement however is not possible if you merely assert and declare moral and ethical positions by fiat, with no rational basis other than "god seems to say so". If no such rational arguments can be found....... and it seems from watching your diatribes on the matter you can not find ONE let alone more........... then it would seem that either A) you have misinterpreted your god's position on this matter or B) you do not know god's position on the matter, or there in fact is no god, and you are merely taking the opinions of bronze aged peasants who THEMSELVES were bigoted against homosexuality..... and acting like this is some kind of gold standard.
The simple reality of it is that Marriage (remember that is what the thread is about) is a state institution. If your personal hobby suggests you should not marry within your sex.... then don't. IF however you lack any arguments for why anyone ELSE should not be doing so..... and it transparently and blatantly appears you do lack such arguments...... then human decency would appear to suggest you should not stand in the way......... by word, deed, or vote........... of them doing so.
If you have an issue with me being a Christian who is also a lesbian, I suggest you take it up with Jesus. Our relationship is ours and ours alone, and I refuse to allow anyone - whether it be you or "answersingenesis" or anyone else - to define it for us. You can believe what you want about our relationship, I'm past caring. But I demand that you stop saying what I have with Him isn't real, or authentic. My relationship with Christ is ours alone, I'm telling you as kindly as I can to keep yourself out of it. You don't get to judge the content of my heart, or my relationship with Christ. You are not qualified.
Those who dare to speak for Christ and tell us what He means---are the most dangerous...
Telling Christ who is loved and who He can love is pure unadulterated donkey pooh..
As for YOU GURL----REMAIN FEARLESS AND APPROACH THE THRONE BOLDLY----
The Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.
19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
Anyone who is going to pull random quotes out of the old testament and use them as "proof" that being gay is evil has to confront a few uncomfortable facts:
- Jesus never forbade it. He spoke about the dangers of adultery, sure - but being gay is not the same as that. He spoke about the importance of a loving marriage, but nobody said gay couples can't love each other. He spoke about God creating people man and woman so they could get married, but you can't then assume everyone who doesn't do exactly that is a "sinner" unless you're also going to condemn people who are single, widowed, etc. So, either homosexuality is not really relevant in the eyes of Jesus - the most important figure and teacher in Christianity, or the Son of God just somehow forgot to mention it in his time here on earth and is going to condemn all the gays anyway, which is laughably absurd.
- One cannot take the old testament laws and simply follow the handful of them that you like. Unless you're following all of them, including not eating shellfish, not trimming your hair, not wearing mixed fabrics and all that crap, you're just as guilty as the "evil gay people." Ignoring all the laws but one that happens to not affect you and then condemning those who break it is as insane and hypocritical as a vegetarian who doesn't eat shellfish following that one law and condemning everyone who breaks it.
- Finally, the old testament god is, quite frankly, a judgmental monster if we're to believe that everything in the bible is true. My favorite example of that fact is perhaps Deuteronomy 23:1
""No one who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD. 2"No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD.…"
So, we're to believe that the infinitely wise, fair, and loving god inspects men's reproductive equipment upon death, like a bunch of livestock, and condemns to hell any of them who have suffered serious injury to that area? So, a bad car crash or testicular cancer condemns men to hell? Really? REALLY??
Either that line is utter drivel, which kicks the legs out from under the gay-bashing defense of "the bible is always right," or, if that line is true, than such a god is not worthy of worship and slavish obedience, in which case there's no need to hate gays.
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