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I agree, our salvation as a whole encompasses both justification and sanctification. But the question I posed is not what it encompasses in it's entirety, the question was the foundation of our salvation, how do we become justified in the sight of God? On what is it founded?
I apologize if I misunderstood your question. I believe our salvation is definitely, positively, absolutely founded on Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on our behalf and on our acceptance of it. Period.
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And this is the hard part because even though you seem to come along way in agreement, we remain on two completely different ends of the spectrum because as I see it, you say that our justification is of grace, but the reality of the matter in Mormon life and practice (from what I read and hear) is that works are vitally important towards our salvation/exaltation. Example is the 10 % tithing which is required of every member.
No, you are misunderstanding here. When we use the word "salvation," we can be referring to either "justification" or to "sanctification." (Although we use the word "sanctification," we more often use the word "exaltation," so that is the word I am going to use instead of "sanctification." They don't mean exactly the same thing, either, but they are close enough in meaning for this discussion.) Since our goal is exaltation and not merely justification, it is only logical that we focus on the works we believe are necessary for us to achieve it. And especially when a Mormon leader is directing his words to a Mormon audience, his use of the word "salvation" is understood to mean "exaltation" and not "justification" (which, to us, is being able to stand before God in a state of innocence, having had one's sins remitted by Christ's Atonement).
I don't see how you can continue to hold the mistaken view that we believe our salvation is based on works when we believe that practically everyone who has ever lived will end up being saved. I believe you will be saved, and you don't pay a 10% tithe or keep many of the things Mormons believe to be commandments.
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Also a couple of views from the LDS Church compared to the Scriptures, to put your view of salvation in a clearer light compared to what the Bible teaches:
Okay, hold it right there. You need to understand that not every statement made by every LDS leader has been canonized, and not every book written by a LDS scholar is doctrinally binding on the members of the Church. Any member of the Church is free to express his own opinion and even get that opinion published in a book. He might choose (as has been done) to call that book, "Mormon Doctrine." That does not mean that what is written in that book is actually Mormon doctrine. It's simply one person's interpretation of Mormon doctrine as he understands it. And this is true regardless of who authors the book. Our sole sources of official doctrine are (1) The Holy Bible (generally the KJV), (2) The Book of Mormon, (3) The Doctrine and Covenants, and (4) The Pearl of Great Price. Examples of non-canonical, non-doctrinal writings are: (1) The Miracle of Forgiveness, Doctrines of Salvation, The Articles of Faith (i.e. the book by that title). There are others, many others. It would be wise for you to keep this fact in mind as you attempt to understand Mormonism.
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"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W.Kimball, p. 206).
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Spencer W. Kimball was speaking of exaltation and not of justification. He used the word "saved" to mean "justified."
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There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
This is simply an example of someone trying to misrepresent our beliefs. We believe Joseph Smith to have been a prophet, just as we believe Abraham, Noah, Moses and Isaiah to have been prophets. We do not see any of them as being even remotely close in stature to Jesus Christ. None of them, Joseph Smith included, are seen as having the power to save (i.e. justify). Certain of Joseph Smith's teachings, on the other hand, would have to be understood and accepted in order for a person to be "exalted." But when I say, "Joseph Smith's teachings," I am implying that the things he taught us are required for exaltation are things God told him were required for exaltation.
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Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith,p. 92).
Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women tolay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts,"
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Again, good words are necessary for exaltation.
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I will argue “vehemently” indeed that these verses by James and the verses I posted above by the apostle Paul are not contradicting each other. And that what James is saying is not that the works of the law are the foundation of our justification before God. But what he is arguing is that faith has to bear fruit of godly works, or it is dead and useless – which is ofcourse true. But the thief on the cross is a fine example of a man that had no ability or opportunity to perform any works to justify himself, yet our Lord said that he would be with Him in paradise that very day, he was saved after living a wicked life of sin, based on the faith that he had in our Lord right then and there on the cross. And I think that example is in the Bible for a reason.
It is obvious that when James says that Abraham was “justified by works” he doesn't mean that God justified Abraham – as in, declared him Righteous in His sight – on the foundation of Abrahams works. In Genesis 15, the Word of God says that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as Righteousness.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Now the “works” of Abraham that James is referring to is the sacrifice of Isaac (James 2:21), which happened after Genesis 15:6 where the Lord counted Abraham righteous based on his faith. Ofcourse this work of obedience to the Lord was the fruit of that sincere faith, the works are a proof of his faith, but as Scripture clearly shows, it is not the basis of his 'being counted Righteous' before God since that happened a long time before he performed the work James mentions. James is exhorting the believers he's writing to, to live what they say they believe, and I think many Churches in our days can really use that same exhortation. Nonetheless it does not negate or contradict the words of the apostle Paul in Galatians and Romans, that we are not justified by the deeds of the law "for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". And that truth will remain standing like a rock for eternity, by the law we know our sin.. and by faith in the Living God, in His Son Jesus Christ, can we be forgiven of our sin and declared Righteous before God. That is the amazing grace and foundation of our salvation, the free gift of God that grants us eternal life by faith in His Son.
I don't believe that the words of James and the words of Paul contradict each other either. You are able to take two passages which -- on the surface, upon initial reading -- appear to contradict each other and reconcile them, realizing that they are both correct and are simply looking at the subject from a slightly different angle. I can do that, too, and I do. The thing is, I am able to do that when I compare the teachings of Mormonism to the teachings of the Bible. When correctly understood, they do not contradict each other. The example of the apparent not not actual contradiction between James' words and Paul's words ought to clearly demonstrate to you how that is possible.
I apologize if I misunderstood your question. I believe our salvation is definitely, positively, absolutely founded on Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on our behalf and on our acceptance of it. Period.
So if our salvation is founded on Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of His sacrifice, how can you maintain that by far the most of humanity will be justified before God based on that?
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I don't see how you can continue to hold the mistaken view that we believe our salvation is based on works when we believe that practically everyone who has ever lived will end up being saved. I believe you will be saved, and you don't pay a 10% tithe or keep many of the things Mormons believe to be commandments.
Not most of humanity have repented from their sin and confess Jesus Christ as their Savior, and are born again of the Spirit, so how will they appear justified and righteous before the throne of God? How will they 'end up being saved'? The Bible says nothing about the possibility of repenting or accepting Christ after death, rather it tells us that it is appointed for men once to die, and then the judgment.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Rather our Lord warns that many will go in at the wide gate and walk the broad way that leads to destruction, leads to hell. And few there be that find the narrow way that leads to life. Yet what you are saying is "few there be that don't eventually find eternal life". And that is just directly contradicting the Words of our Lord Himself.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The passage you mentioned before, a couple of verses later in Matthew 7:21 also confirms this actually, many will say unto Me Lord, Lord.. but He will tell them to go away.
Matthew 7:23-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Again, the works weren't the issue here, they thought they had done quite wonderful works actually. But the issue was, like the majority of humanity, they had not a true relationship with Jesus Christ. They did not know Him.
Sadly Mormonism has salvation backwards, you say pretty much everyone is saved. And sad to say that is one of the signs of demonic origins, satan doesn't want us to worry much about our salvation or that of others, so he will make it seem almost an automatic given that we are saved or still can be saved after this life. Well if that's pretty much a given, the only thing that seems to matter is our "exaltation" in the afterlife. It's nothing short of a lie.
But the Bible says most of the people will be lost in eternal judgment and only a few will find the way to life through the Lord Jesus Christ. Those few will still be a great multitude which no man could number, but they are few compared to the total population of humanity over all the centuries.
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I don't believe that the words of James and the words of Paul contradict each other either. You are able to take two passages which -- on the surface, upon initial reading -- appear to contradict each other and reconcile them, realizing that they are both correct and are simply looking at the subject from a slightly different angle. I can do that, too, and I do. The thing is, I am able to do that when I compare the teachings of Mormonism to the teachings of the Bible. When correctly understood, they do not contradict each other. The example of the apparent not not actual contradiction between James' words and Paul's words ought to clearly demonstrate to you how that is possible.
I think as it is possible to reconcile apparent contradictions, which are not actual contradictions. So it is possible that apparent agreement on some issues, is actually contradicting in the root of the matters of faith. Which I am convinced is very much the case in our discussion, and which is becoming increasingly more clear.
I'll try to just respond bit by bit as we go, sorry if I can't always reply to all of the content of your posts. And I hope you won't forget my views on Mormonism have nothing to do with you personally and it's in no way my intention to offend you, but rather to show you the truth from the Scriptures as God has revealed them to me through His Spirit and I do this with prayer ofcourse so it might not be my own words and wisdom but truly Gods.
Loving God is the first and greatest commandment. Keeping His commandments is how to love God as Jesus described. So doing good works by keeping the commandments and abiding in God's word merits salvation.
Chanokh, why do you think "judgment" is limited to either Heaven or Hell?
Because it is? There's degrees of severity of the punishment in hell, and degrees of the glory of our reward in heaven. That's indeed part of the judgment.
But the most important thing for most people living in this world is, are they even going to heaven? And on the basis of what will God allow them to enter in? Are their sins truly forgiven? And why? You would be surprised of the amount of people that hold distorted and unbiblical views on heaven and hell, and more than 150,000 people die every day, many of whom perish because they didn't repent from their sin and believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation.
Eternal reward is amazing, yet I would gladly be one of the "few" that enter in through the narrow gate and find eternal life, even if I have to be the very least in the Kingdom, as long as I go there! But most people won't go there according to the Scriptures, so that should be the primary concern.
Because it is? There's degrees of severity of the punishment in hell, and degrees of the glory of our reward in heaven. That's indeed part of the judgment.
I am intentionally going to respond to this post before I respond to your earlier one. This is because you have made a very critical observation, and that is that there are differences in the degrees of glory of our reward in Heaven. (I'm not going to even discuss your belief that there are also differences in degrees of severity of punishment in Hell, because for the time being at least, Heaven's enough for us to deal with. )
I'm going to be totally honest with you and tell you that never before have I heard a non-Mormon say that they believe there are different degrees of heavenly glory. I'm glad to hear you say that, because I suspect the fact that you believe this will make it easier for you to understand the LDS doctrine on this subject.
Mormon theology definitely teaches that there is more than one degree of heavenly glory. Paul's comments on the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 support this concept, but additional revelation to modern-day prophets provides us with further, more specific knowledge than we get from Paul's brief remarks. He says that "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. I believe that there are different degrees of glory within Heaven, one like that of the stars, one like that of the moon, and another like that of the sun."
We believe that there are three main divisions of glory within Heaven, each of these referred to as a "kingdom" or a "degree of glory": The Celestial, the Terrestrial and the Telestial. These can be said to have the glory, respectively, of the sun, moon and stars. I can go into more detail concerning these if you would like me to, but for now, I'll just leave it at that -- except to say that we know through revelation from God that the Celestial Kingdom, at least, is further subdivided. It's possible that the other kingdoms or degrees of glory are, too; we just don't know for sure. We believe the highest degree of glory within the Celestial Kingdom is the Kingdom of God. It is where God the Father literally resides. Those who, by through their righteousness, commitment and faithfulness to the Lord will also reside -- in God's company and in the company of their families. These are the individuals who are said to be given "Eternal Life."
We believe there to be a difference between immortality and eternal life. Because of Jesus the Christ, we will all experience immortality. We will all be resurrected. Eternal life, in LDS theology, is immortality in God's presence, with the added, unimaginably wonderful gift of eternal progression. So does this mean that those who do not attain "eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom" aren't with God at all? Essentially, yes. They will live as immortal beings in either terrestrial or telestial glory. Their continued existence will be marvelous beyond what any of us can presently even begin to comprehend. But when we are told that there will be "few" who will find the narrow way that leads to eternal life, we don't believe that means that "few" will go to Heaven, only that "few" will be exalted and have eternal life in the Kingdom of God, His "Celestial Kingdom." That is entirely consistent with what the Bible has to say. It's just that the Bible doesn't clarity that "eternal life" is what we should all be seeking for as opposed to a lesser degree of glory.
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But the most important thing for most people living in this world is, are they even going to heaven? And on the basis of what will God allow them to enter in? Are their sins truly forgiven? And why? You would be surprised of the amount of people that hold distorted and unbiblical views on heaven and hell, and more than 150,000 people die every day, many of whom perish because they didn't repent from their sin and believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation.
Once again, to you, any view that doesn't mirror yours is "unbiblical." As you have probably figured our from your relatively short time here on City-Data, there are many, many Christians who believe what the Bible has to say but who interpret it differently than you do. This is a concept that simply continues to elude you.
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Eternal reward is amazing, yet I would gladly be one of the "few" that enter in through the narrow gate and find eternal life, even if I have to be the very least in the Kingdom, as long as I go there! But most people won't go there according to the Scriptures, so that should be the primary concern.
If you enter in through the narrow gate and find eternal life, you won't be among the very least in the Kingdom. Those two things are mutually exclusive, as the "very least" of those who are saved will enjoy eternity in the Telestial Kingdom.
By the way, I haven't had a chance to post today until now, and I can already anticipate some of your questions and comments and, yes, criticisms of my beliefs. If you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate it if you could hold off on your response until I have had a chance to get to your earlier post.
Last edited by mensaguy; 11-03-2016 at 04:23 AM..
Reason: Fixed typo (on request)
Not most of humanity have repented from their sin and confess Jesus Christ as their Savior, and are born again of the Spirit, so how will they appear justified and righteous before the throne of God? How will they 'end up being saved'? The Bible says nothing about the possibility of repenting or accepting Christ after death, rather it tells us that it is appointed for men once to die, and then the judgment.
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.
Once again, to you, any view that doesn't mirror yours is "unbiblical." As you have probably figured our from your relatively short time here on City-Data, there are many, many Christians who believe what the Bible has to say but who interpret it differently than you do. This is a concept that simply continues to elude you.
Unfortunately, once certain people are stigmatized as being morally inferior - or less than.
Their persecution becomes more psychologically acceptable to those who would brand them.
Unfortunately, once certain people are stigmatized as being morally inferior - or less than.
Their persecution becomes more psychologically acceptable to those who would brand them.
That's out of necessity because if they people they are marginalizing are innocent then that might mean that the accuser it's quite so holy as they imagine themselves.
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