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So, your god simply did not know about it. Is your god aware of anything else that's going on here? Does he know you exist?
MY GOD GAVE HUMANITY a BRAIN AND EXPECTS US TO FIX THE PROBLEM..We have the ability and knowledge to stop this slaughter of people if only we step away from powerful lobbyists and idiots.
MY GOD GAVE HUMANITY a BRAIN AND EXPECTS US TO FIX THE PROBLEM..We have the ability and knowledge to stop this slaughter of people if only we step away from powerful lobbyists and idiots.
So, your god is not willing, or is not capable of intervention?
You make it sound like the human mind is your 'god'.
Can is what's missing!
A lot of folks with a faulty understanding of the scriptures fall into this common unbelievers trap!
Many people get confused by the "All Knowing" (omniscient) power of God, thinking that all knowing means that he (God) knew or knows everything before it happens.
A narrative leading to the answer:
Scriptures show that God gives mankind the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency, which makes them accountable for their acts.
They are not mere automatons, or robots.
We could not have been created in “God’s image” if we were not allowed free will.
To get to the all knowing answer I will first give another example of God's power ... omnipotence.
(All Powerful)
Is God's infinite power, without limit?
The power is infinite .. as is the control.
What then is the answer?
Control!
God’s almightiness (omnipotence) is perfect and infinite in capacity.
God's perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent.
If he didn't exercise control, certain ancient cities and some nations would have been destroyed, the earth and all in it would have been obliterated long ago by God’s executions of judgment.
If God could not control his power ...
Just be glad that an All Powerful God is able to control his infinite power!
It is the same with his power of foreknowledge.
If God had exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness from creation onwards would have been deliberately set in motion by God himself!
God is able to choose or be selective in the knowing of future events.
As an example:
Today we can record video like football games that we would otherwise miss because we were too busy with other tasks when the game was played.
When we get home and sit down to watch the recorded game ... Do we go directly to the end of the video?
Maybe we do at times but that is our choice.
I am sure that God has those choices too? 8)
God’s arranging for a test by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” in the garden of Eden would be meaningless, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to pass the test.
Not only does man have free will ... God himself has the same control and freewill!
This all brings us back to the "Why did this happen to those folks in their church?"
We all suffer at some point in time because of the rebellion in the Garden.
What God did is to give man Free Will and the Right to be more than puppets!
If God just sat around picking and choosing what we do or what will happen to us ... God would be nothing more than the "puppeteer!"
(Read the book of Job which gives the answer to this very question)
Job, the Apostles, Jesus ....
As written: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)
This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9)
Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel.
So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty.
That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
Another reason for suffering is “time and unexpected events.”
(Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9)
I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, because time and unexpected events overtake them all.
God is either omniscient or He isn't. Philosophers and theologians have long had various views concerning God's omniscience. However, omniscience by its very nature means that God has complete and total knowledge of all the knowable, of all the facts, past, present, and future, both the actual, and of the possible, all that might have been had other decisions and actions of men been made other than the decisions and actions that have been made and will be made in the future. Therefore, if God is omniscient or all knowing then He cannot limit what He knows. Theopedia defines omniscience simply as:
''The omniscience of God deals with what God knows. The term literally means "all-knowing", understanding God's knowledge to be exhaustive of both the past, present, and future.''
God can not, nor does He need to limit His knowledge in order for the volition of man to function. God's awareness of what a man will do does not affect the ability of man to use his God given volition.
Job 34:21 says that God sees all the steps of man. This means that God's knowledge of man's steps is in no way self limited.
Job 34:21 "For His eyes are upon the ways of man, And He sees all his steps.
Jeremiah 16:17 says that God sees all the ways of men and that their iniquity is not hidden from Him.
Jeremiah 16:17 "For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes.
God has complete and intimate knowledge of all things. Matthew 10:29 says that not even a sparrow can fall to the ground apart from God knowing about it.
And then there is Psalm 139 in which God's omnipresence and omniscience or both spoken of.
Psalm 139:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. O LORD, You have searched me and known me. 2] You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. 3] You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. 4]Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.5] You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. 6] Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it. 7] Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8] If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
Contrary to your opening sentence, those who understand the Scriptures understand that they teach that God has all knowledge even of things that have not yet happened.
Let's apply a bit of logic to the situation based upon the supposition that God actually exists in reality, and that He is sovereign, all knowing, and all powerful.
Did this church shooting actually happen? Yes it did. Did God know it was going to happen? Yes. Could God have prevented the shooting from happening? Yes. Did God prevent it from happening? No. Logically then, God allowed the shooting to happen. Regardless of the reason He had for allowing it to happen, He did allow it.
If you cannot accept the logic of the above statements then you must accept that God either didn't know the shooting was going to happen and was taken by surprise, or that He did know it was going to happen but was unable or unwilling to prevent it from happening.
That is the logic and the reality of the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Perhaps god DID allow this evil to happen, but then there is no way any moral person could call him "good."
That view extends back to Augustine, but neither or Origen nor Clement espoused it. The idea of "voluntarism" gained more popularity in the Middle Ages and is supported today by John Piper.
Voluntarism places God’s will prior to his goodness. The motive is a defense of God’s freedom. It expands the primacy of God’s will, not only over creation, but also over God’s own nature. According to Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart, the voluntarists “placed an unprecedented emphasis on God’s sovereign will as being the first and highest and primary attribute in God.”
David Bentley Hart, “Nihilism and Freedom,” (lecture, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN, Mar. 22, 2007).
God not only allows evil—he eternally, permissively decrees it. Voluntarism is a kind of Calvinistic view opposed to the idea of a loving and nurturing God.
Every act of terror, every rape and murder, every genocide or infanticide, every cancer and heart attack, every famine and plague are all in the service of God’s ultimate purpose: that one would fear him and glorify his name.
Frankly, it's pretty disgusting from a moral point of view. And no wonder it is turning so many away from Church when they realize the conscience God gave them is superior to his own "actions."
And it does nothing to soothe the anguish of family members in Sutherland Springs who right now are having their soul torn out of them.
Your argument ignores the logic involved. Only if God is limited in power and knowledge could the church shooting, or any other evil, take place. The logic is laid out in post #32.
The fact that God allowed it does not mean that He caused it or approved of it. It means simply that for His own reasons He permitted it to happen. Many things of which God disapproves and which are against His directive will take place every day. For example, murder. God prohibits the act of murder.
Exodus 20:13 Do not murder.
Yet murders happen every single day, and multiple times every day. Though God prohibits murder and does not approve of it, murders happen. That's just the way it is and there is no getting around it.
God gave man volition, and so in human history the sovereignty of God and the volition of man co-exist. In order for man's volition to exist and to function God has to allow decisions and actions on the part of man that are against God's stated will to take place. Man's volition is limited of course. God will not allow man's volition to cause the destruction of the human race, and so God jumps in when necessary to keep things from getting out of hand.
The Bible teaches that God is sovereign, and that He is all powerful and all knowing. Therefore, He knew that the church shooting would take place, and since He did not prevent it from happening it follows that He allowed it to happen.
Nor does the fact that He permitted it, or permits any other evil to occur does not mean that God is not good. The argument that it does is an attempt to mode God in such a way that you find acceptable and of which you approve. The argument ignores the fact that God has to allow human volition to operate if volition is to exist. The argument also ignores the fact that God knows exactly what He is doing regardless of whether we understand why some things happen.
it is a thread about innocent people being murdered and you NULLIFY the slaughter.
Of course I don't. It was horrible. And I think the garbage we see on this very forum at times with the atheists and the snarky attitudes, constantly insulting, mocking, and attacking God and Christianity is the same type of attitude that this internet atheist cyberbully had. He was a "preacher of atheism" as he was described, and was active on social media preaching it. I only wonder if he lurked here at times and saw some of the hatred displayed against Christianity at times.
I just came back to this thread ...I thought the subject was as clear as day:
"Prayers for those grieving in Sutherland Springs"
I'm not getting this....shouldn't a New Thread be started to simply discuss what is being talked about here...Did God know, did He allow it, etc?
Prayers? I'm not seeing any, guys.
: We call this a SENSELESS act of violence. It has nothing to do with God.
well, IM sure some of the innocent people living during the old testament times felt the same way about God, when following Gods laws meant killing anyone that blasphemed his name, even if it was women and children. In the OT, God ordered LOTs of killing to be done under his name...how do you think the people he was instructing his faithful to kill, felt about all this, what about their loved ones and families?
it is a thread about innocent people being murdered and you NULLIFY the slaughter.
I started the thread. It's about prayer for the grieving and hope for the departed that they knew Christ.
But knowing how some people are on C-D, it is not surprising that other issues have crept in.
If you are a follower of Christ, being that this is a church that was attacked, I consider this is as 'family' that has been attacked - since all who are in Christ are spiritually related by the presence of Christ within us.
I started the thread. It's about prayer for the grieving and hope for the departed that they knew Christ.
Prayer can't hurt.
But much better would be keeping weapons from nutbars so this kind of thing isn't just another day in the US of A.
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: We call this a SENSELESS act of violence. It has nothing to do with God.
