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So if we don't have faith then it's because God didn't want it to happen? That covers people like me then. Can't say I'm surprised.
Ultimately - yes, that's correct. He works in cohesion with our free will. See below.
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
What about the people who do have faith but their faith doesn't agree with yours? Were they not also given the gift of faith?
God is specific in what He requires us to have faith. It is not ours versus yours... it is His requirement... and it points directly to the truth of who His Son is - the resurrected Person of Jesus Christ.
So when you freely choose to believe in Christ as the One who sacrificed Himself for our sins, that is the indicator that He choose you.
Ultimately - yes, that's correct. He works in cohesion with our free will. See below.
God is specific in what He requires us to have faith. It is not ours versus yours... it is His requirement... and it points directly to the truth of who His Son is - the resurrected Person of Jesus Christ.
So when you freely choose to believe in Christ as the One who sacrificed Himself for our sins, that is the indicator that He choose you.
How did you freely choose if it was a gift that you either did or did not receive?
If one were to ask, "What must I do to EARN salvation and eternal life?", most would immediately assert that one cannot "earn" salvation because it is entirely a gift of God's grace ... and if one could earn it, it would not be grace.
But, some of these same folks directly or indirectly argue that "Once saved, one must work to KEEP their salvation and eternal life," when they reject OSAS. People are either "saved by grace through faith" and "sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption," or they are not saved at all.
Not so.
People like myself reject OSAS for several reasons:
1) Jesus also spoke the truth about what happens if a person ("you") not remain in him.
he does not say: " never mind ... you're OSAS"
he does not say: "you never were really a believer in the first place"
2) Jesus does not state OSAS as any scenario to one of the persons represented as the soils in the parable Sower and the Seed
3) Scripture truths are not always to be one or the other as OSAS proponents dictate it to be.
Both are true:
Believers are "sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption,"
and this is true: Remain faithful
Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." Hebrews 6:11 "We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized."
How did you freely choose if it was a gift that you either did or did not receive?
Because I freely choose to believe in the gospel of Christ.
Look at this here and consider the disciples.
Matthew 4:18-22 - Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Did Jesus choose them? - yes.
Did they freely choose to follow Christ? - yes, but...
John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit,"
Now there was no pull against the will of the disciples to follow Christ... they chose to follow Him - and they actually stated that they chose to follow Him - I just can't dig it up.
Because I freely choose to believe in the gospel of Christ.
Look at this here and consider the disciples.
Matthew 4:18-22 - Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Did Jesus choose them? - yes.
Did they freely choose to follow Christ? - yes, but...
John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit,"
Now there was no pull against the will of the disciples to follow Christ... they chose to follow Him - and they actually stated that they chose to follow Him - I just can't dig it up.
I sense that you are sincerely trying to explain this to me. It honestly seems circular to me(I'm often told I just don't get things so this isn't on you). You can go ahead and quote a scripture that says I don't understand per wickedness if you like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Ultimately - yes, that's correct. He works in cohesion with our free will. See below.
God is specific in what He requires us to have faith. It is not ours versus yours... it is His requirement... and it points directly to the truth of who His Son is - the resurrected Person of Jesus Christ.
So when you freely choose to believe in Christ as the One who sacrificed Himself for our sins, that is the indicator that He choose you.
It looks like you choosing Him means He has already chosen you. If that is what you are saying then fine, it will be irresistible. That may look like free will to you because you will go wanting to go but that desire was placed in you ahead of time. That's not what I would call free will as in choice.
You just reminded me of a good song though, so there is that.
I sense that you are sincerely trying to explain this to me. It honestly seems circular to me(I'm often told I just don't get things so this isn't on you). You can go ahead and quote a scripture that says I don't understand per wickedness if you like.
Don't know why you think I would do that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
It looks like you choosing Him means He has already chosen you. If that is what you are saying then fine, it will be irresistible. That may look like free will to you because you will go wanting to go but that desire was placed in you ahead of time. That's not what I would call free will as in choice.
You just reminded me of a good song though, so there is that.
Ephesians 1 does say that those who are His are chosen from the beginning - so you are correct.
You want to call it irresistible - OK.
I'm one who thinks our free will is limited. We have free will - but at any time, God can intervene and has the power to make our free will line up with His sovereignty. Exhibit A is Paul in Acts chapter 9.
Actually, no. It is achieved by Christ on the cross. We are saved/justified because we have faith in Jesus. Loving people comes as a result of that and is an indication we are justified. Loving is a result of, not cause of salvation.
You seem to have some confusion. There is NOTHING we need to do that causes our salvation. Jesus did that for us, period. Love of God and each other is how we are sanctified so our imperfect love is covered by Christ's perfect love (Grace).
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So your opinion in this is meaningless and we shouldn't worry about following the precepts and doctrines you're telling us?
I am NOT telling you any "precepts and doctrines of men." I am simply promoting the love of God and each other every day as Jesus instructed His disciples to do.
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I do agree that following rules and laws doesn't save us. Jesus does. But if you think you're saved by following an attitude and behavior, then it's no different than that Pharisee that tells us we have to live by the Law to be saved. You're still counting on your ability to DO something.
I repeat. There is NOTHING we can count on DOING to be saved. We have nothing to do with it. Jesus did that and it is finished, period! All your concern over salvation is misplaced and pointless since we have nothing to do with it. Sanctification under the perfect love (Grace) of Jesus is our concern.
You seem to have some confusion. There is NOTHING we need to do that causes our salvation. Jesus did that for us, period. Love of God and each other is how we are sanctified so our imperfect love is covered by Christ's perfect love (Grace).
Glad to agree with you on that.
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I am NOT telling you any "precepts and doctrines of men." I am simply promoting the love of God and each other every day as Jesus instructed His disciples to do. I repeat. There is NOTHING we can count on DOING to be saved. We have nothing to do with it. Jesus did that and it is finished, period! All your concern over salvation is misplaced and pointless since we have nothing to do with it. Sanctification under the perfect love (Grace) of Jesus is our concern.
Also glad to agree that salvation is of God.
Do you believe everyone is saved? Or only those that believe?
Glad to agree with you on that.
Also glad to agree that salvation is of God.
Do you believe everyone is saved? Or only those that believe?
Yes, everyone, but I am willing to listen to any explanation of how or why belief would change things. I can see no reason to assume that ANYTHING we DO or NOT DO could have any impact on our salvation. It is all Jesus.
Ephesians 1 does say that those who are His are chosen from the beginning - so you are correct.
.
I find those who are chosen are those holy ones of Ephesians 1:1 the saints, who are also the ones of Daniel 7:18.
So, those holy saints are a class as part of the whole holy nation of 1st Peter 2:9,5.
So, the position was made in advance, but as to who would be part of it was yet unknown - Hebrews 6:4-6.
Not called before baptism, and conform to God's will or purpose as per Romans 8:28-30; Eph. 1:3-12; 2nd Timothy 1:9-10.
They are expected to remain faithful; foreordained works - Eph. 2:10; 1st Thess. 3:3-4; Revelation 2:10.
So, the 'group', so to speak, was chosen from the founding, but Not who would make up that class or group.
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