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it's late--or rather early, early morning andI'm tired and pulling this from an addled memory. Didn't one or two of the disciples see Jesus appear with John the B who stated "Here is the one who is greater than me---" or words to that effect? John's message made Jesus appear as the messiah so those who heard were interested in following Jesus and hearing what He had to say. They chose to follow because the popular view of the messiah in that culture was that the messiah would lead them in revolt against the Roman occupiers. There had already been a couple of self-proclaimed messiahs prior to Jesus. They had been killed. So the Jews were awaiting the "real" messiah. They were pulled into following by the messiah mystique and only later won by the charisma of the Man they met.
The first couple of disciples went to others stating "come see the messiah." Only Nathaniel was skeptical and I think it was Philip who said, "Come see for yourself." And Nathaniel did.
The message in that for those who don't know Christ is "Come see for yourself." Around other believers either they will see Jesus and want to follow or they will see something quite different from the messiah and want nothing to do with Him. That message also makes it clear that most people MUST see for themselves, they won't be talked into it.
Sounds like you are pushing the human angle of coming to Christ. It does not alter God's election.
Sounds like you are pushing the human angle of coming to Christ. It does not alter God's election.
Look, I offered information on your thoughts with no attempt to denigrate them.
Now you want to turn it into a magical session. The disciples either WILLINGLY followed Jesus or they did not. When one turns Jesus into a Super-Human, without recognizing He is 100% man, he has effectively denied that Jesus came to live among us. And that's the old gnostic heresy---God descended on Jesus at His baptism--and left Him on the cross.
Jesus' divinity has NEVER been a problem with fundamentalists. It's His humanity they wish to cover up.
Look, I offered information on your thoughts with no attempt to denigrate them.
Now you want to turn it into a magical session. The disciples either WILLINGLY followed Jesus or they did not. When one turns Jesus into a Super-Human, without recognizing He is 100% man, he has effectively denied that Jesus came to live among us. And that's the old gnostic heresy---God descended on Jesus at His baptism--and left Him on the cross.
Jesus' divinity has NEVER been a problem with fundamentalists. It's His humanity they wish to cover up.
I wasn't sure if you were denigrating my response. I did not say you were wrong... I was just highlighting God's sovereignty which you did not mention. Both God's sovereignty and our free will are in play. That's all.
Actually,it does. The stain of sin is on all human beings, as we receive the sin nature from Adam.
I was taught something slightly different, with the same result.
We sin, because we are sinners. We got that trait from
Adam, same as we got our need to breath from Adam.
We can no more completely abstain from sin,
than we can abstain from breathing.
Therefore all have sinned.
Jesus, though brought forth, physically, from a woman,
was not conceived from man, and therefore has no such
trait. He lacked a "sin nature" and therefore did not sin.
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