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I know that's his point. And I explained that if God is outside of time and space, if He is transcendent, then He is not dependent on time or space.
As an analogy. It is thought that time and space began with the big bang. Yet, the big bang didn't just happen without being caused by something, whatever that something was - cosmic foam, quantum fluctuations, higher dimensions, a grade school girl in some true reality writing a computer program in which we think we exist and believe ourselves to be real, etc. Therefore, something outside of what we know as time which wasn't dependent on time or space caused the big bang.
Yes, but that is the problem time is a very controversial issue in cosmology. Causality is an open subject and as such throws the whole basis of these arguments in question. All cosmological arguments are based upon the nature of causality. Just saying a priori that God is not subject to it does not explain anything - it helps not to understand how causation, as we normally see it as having time as a factor, is in play when God causes the universe to come into existence.
It's like just saying you need a mind to create something based upon what we know about minds creating things yet forgetting that all minds we know of are embodied and have causal relations with matter/energy. Quantum energy is still there despite whether the time factor is real or not. That is not the case with a God affecting nothing coming into existence. Hence why I also quoted Genesis' pre-existing matter. How does a disembodied mind create anything, we have no examples of that. Just saying well it is not subject to all the causal things we know of about causality - says absolutely nothing. With the quantum we have models that explain these possibilities - possibilities that are demonstrated using different notions of causality/time.
The difference with an eternal quantum energy is that the universe as we know it is tied to that energy. The only way this works with God, or your particular God is creatio ex deo not creatio ex materia or creatio ex nihiloh (as Christians believe).
What does the Bible say about Pre-universe? In other words, what does the Bible say as to what God was doing before he created the Universe? After all, God has No beginning at all, so there must have been a mind-staggeringly infinite amount of time before he created the Universe, yes? So in that infinite amount of time, was he doing nothing at all?? What does the Bible say?
The Bible addresses time from "the beginning," which, of course is "the beginning of the universe which God created." As you have pointed out, God must have been doing something prior to the creation, before the clock started ticking, so to speak, but the Bible is silent on that topic. In order to find any information on it, you'd have to be willing to look outside the Bible, which most people are not willing to do, since they are convinced that everything of any importance that God ever did is recorded within the pages of that book.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit had perfect unity and fellowship in and of themselves. They existed eternally, and had no need of anything. God did not create the universe in order to fulfill his need. God had all he wanted.
So He was doing absolutely nothing until He created our universe? How boring that must have been -- to have existed forever and never have done anything until creating our universe. This has nothing to do with what God needed, unless you want to argue that when He finally did create our universe, it was to meet some kind of "need."
05-24-2018, 05:33 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
I just curious why God was dissatisfied with his existence that he wanted to create?
Yes, but that is the problem time is a very controversial issue in cosmology. Causality is an open subject and as such throws the whole basis of these arguments in question. All cosmological arguments are based upon the nature of causality. Just saying a priori that God is not subject to it does not explain anything - it helps not to understand how causation, as we normally see it as having time as a factor, is in play when God causes the universe to come into existence.
It's like just saying you need a mind to create something based upon what we know about minds creating things yet forgetting that all minds we know of are embodied and have causal relations with matter/energy. Quantum energy is still there despite whether the time factor is real or not. That is not the case with a God affecting nothing coming into existence. Hence why I also quoted Genesis' per-existing matter. How does a disembodied mind create anything, we have no examples of that. Just saying well it is not subject to all the causal things we know of about causality - says absolutely nothing. With the quantum we have models that explain these possibilities - possibilities that are demonstrated using different notions of causality/time.
I said, something, not necessarily God, caused the big bang but was itself not bound by time. This is true whether it can be explained or not. Just as it is true that something has had to have always existed or nothing at all would have ever come into existence because 'nothing' in the absolute sense of the word, not 'nothing' as physicists understand it, but absolute nothingness could not give rise to anything.
Quantum energy is the existence of something, regardless of how physicists may choose to understand it as 'nothing'. If quantum energy pre-existed the big bang and if it was the cause of the big bang, then it produced the big bang outside of time.
And you cannot dogmatically say that that isn't the case with God just because you don't believe He exists. You want explanations for the unexplainable. How quantum energy could have eternally existed without having been caused to come into existence by something else is itself unexplainable.
You are now debating the existence of God which is not allowed on the Christianity forum and I'm not going to argue about it. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven on the basis of science.
So He was doing absolutely nothing until He created our universe? How boring that must have been -- to have existed forever and never have done anything until creating our universe. This has nothing to do with what God needed, unless you want to argue that when He finally did create our universe, it was to meet some kind of "need."
I tend to think that God, being a Creator God, was always creating something. Other Universes, other realities.
05-24-2018, 05:45 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I said, something, not necessarily God, caused the big bang but was itself not bound by time. This is true whether it can be explained or not. Just as it is true that something has had to have always existed or nothing at all would have ever come into existence because 'nothing' in the absolute sense of the word, not 'nothing' as physicists understand it, but absolute nothingness could not give rise to anything.
Quantum energy is the existence of something, regardless of how physicists may choose to understand it as 'nothing'. If quantum energy pre-existed the big bang and if it was the cause of the big bang, then it produced the big bang outside of time.
And you cannot dogmatically say that that isn't the case with God just because you don't believe He exists. You want explanations for the unexplainable. How quantum energy could have eternally existed without having been caused to come into existence by something else is itself unexplainable.
You are now debating the existence of God which is not allowed on the Christianity forum and I'm not going to argue about it. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven on the basis of science.
Not so much his existence but how his existence, as understood, created anything. The models for Quantum may not be fully understood but models do exists and no model has the mechanism/s as separate from the energy that caused it. With God that is not the case as developed by creatio ex nihiloh.
Not so much his existence but how his existence, as understood, created anything. The models for Quantum may not be fully understood but models do exists and no model has the mechanism/s as separate from the energy that caused it. With God that is not the case as developed by creatio ex nihiloh.
If God is infinite mind, then why shouldn't He be able to create, perhaps out of nothing, or perhaps out of pre-existing matter? I think the Hebrew word bara in Genesis 1:1 is taken as implying creation out of nothing, and yet the same word is used for the creation of man in Genesis 1:27. And the text says that Adam, as well as the woman, was made out of pre-existing material. This means that 'bara' need not necessarily be understood as creatio ex nihiloh. But the entire Genesis account is non-literal anyway and so can't be used to make any claims about how God actually created the Universe.
05-24-2018, 06:23 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If God is infinite mind, then why shouldn't He be able to create, perhaps out of nothing, or perhaps out of pre-existing matter? I think the Hebrew word bara in Genesis 1:1 is taken as implying creation out of nothing, and yet the same word is used for the creation of man in Genesis 1:27. And the text says that Adam, as well as the woman, was made out of pre-existing material. This means that 'bara' need not necessarily be understood as creatio ex nihiloh. But the entire Genesis account is non-literal anyway and so can't be used to make any claims about how God actually created the Universe.
Apart from knowing nothing about how a disembodied mind could do such a thing - nothing but mere assertion and I would say special pleading. As far as bara that's correct but Genesis 1:1 is not a creation act. See Mike Heiser on this issue - I think you will appreciate it. It is a topic Fronted Prepositional Phrase. It is an dependent clause. The first creative act was in verse 3 not verse 1. Hence verse 2 is the pre-existing material from which God created. This actually help your case - but also cause another problem.
Apart from knowing nothing about how a disembodied mind could do such a thing - nothing but mere assertion and I would say special pleading. As far as bara that's correct but Genesis 1:1 is not a creation act. See Mike Heiser on this issue - I think you will appreciate it. It is a topic Fronted Prepositional Phrase. It is an dependent clause. The first creative act was in verse 3 not verse 1. Hence verse 2 is the pre-existing material from which God created. This actually help your case - but also cause another problem.
I actually was trying to remember something that Heiser said about it but was to lazy to look it up. But Genesis 1:1 states that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That sounds like a reference to creation to me. But I think I know where to find Heiser's statement on it and will listen to it.
Is nothing possible unless we know how it is possible? Do we need to be able to explain something for it to be a fact? We can't explain how quantum energy could have always existed without first coming into existence, but logically, it, or something, had to always have been in existence without having been caused to come into existence even though we can't explain it except perhaps as a five year old would - 'just because.'
If God exists and if He is responsible for creation, then He did it however He did it regardless of whether we can understand it.
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