Lord Jesus, are there few that be saved? (hell, myths, woman)

[Rose2Luv]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

No, the purpose is expanded on in the Bible - that's where we see the purpose of God spoken of by Paul and John. Unless you want to contemplate your naval to do so go ahead I don't care. It's not my vision Rose it's what the Bible says - it's Paul and John's vision of God's purpose - if you have a problem with it - too bad.

My problem lies not with the Master, Christ Jesus, who declares He will draw all mankind unto Himself, or St John, who declares He is the propitiation for our sins & not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world, or the Apostle St. Paul who speaks clearly of our Father's "cherished" purpose in the Christ! My problem is firmly rooted in Mike and you! I bet you will never guess who declared the following>>>>>>>

"The whole of created life shall be delivered"

Originally Posted by Rose2Luv

But it is your problem, and your pal Mike! And it does change one "damn" thing! 15k children dying every day under the age of five, never exercising faith in the Christ, and Shiloh does not care. You need metamorphoo muchly!

"The whole of created life shall be delivered"

I said I don't care about your personal subjective feeling about what the Bible says only about what it does say. I did not say I did not care about kids dying. That is irrelevant to the point of what Paul and John are saying.

Stop with your misrepresentations! Talk about metamorphoses. See how you have to distort things in order to gain and advantage - it is dishonest and hypocritical.

Originally Posted by Rose2Luv

My problem lies not with the Master, Christ Jesus, who declares He will draw all mankind unto Himself, or St John, who declares He is the propitiation for our sins & not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world, or the Apostle St. Paul who speaks clearly of our Father's "cherished" purpose in the Christ! My problem is firmly rooted in Mike and you! I bet you will never guess who declared the following>>>>>>>

"The whole of created life shall be delivered"

Where do you think the ideas about the Master come from - Paul and John! You do have a problem with them!

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Apparently, you have a contradiction when it comes to reality. Is it the indicative or the aorist? As the indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. And the aorist is said to be a simple occurrence or summary occurrence without regard for the amount of time it takes to accomplish the action. But I will ask again, is your faith greater than his desire? From what I can see his desire (want, will) to have all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth - it is an active and ongoing action. Whereas, your point of view is that it's up to the believer's own faculty or power to believe and to be saved in the here, and now. Although I do not have a problem with having faith in this present age. But I highly doubt anyone would or will reject him - when in HIS PRESENCE.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Ooops, I did say aorist didn't I. Yes, it's the indicative mood that is the mood of reality as I said back in post #511. Of course you automatically make a case out it and accuse me of having ''a contradiction with reality'' instead of assuming that I simply accidentally put aorist instead of indicative. But that's the way you are.

And it is not an issue of whether our faith is greater than God's desire. The issue is that God requires that we have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Since God gave man volition that means that God's sovereignty co-exists with human volition. And God will not override man's volition to save man against man's will.

Post #511

No, that is what Daniel Wallace, whose intermediate Greek Grammar, 'Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics' is a standard text book in Greek language courses, is saying.

Potential Indicative

a. Definition

The indicative is used with verbs of obligation, wish, or desire, followed by an infinitive. The nature of the verb root, rather than the indicative, is what makes it look like a potential mood in its semantic force. This usage is fairly common.

Specifically, verbs indicating obligation (such as ὸΦειλω δει), wish (e.g., βούλομαι), or desire (e.g., θέλω) are used with an infinitive. They lexically limit the overall assertion, turning it into a potential action. It is important to understand that the normal force of the indicative mood is not thereby denied; rather, the assertion is simply in the desire, not the doing. Thus, this usage is really a subcategory of the declarative indicative.

Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p. 451

The indicative mood is the mood of reality. It is a reality that God desires all men to be saved. But the action that would result from the desire is only a potential. Man must respond to the gospel with positive volition in order to be saved. This fact is stated repeatedly in the New Testament.

No, I am not making a case out of it, but I would like to know what the difference is between Acts 15:11 and that of 1 Timothy 2:4, do not both relate to the indicative or aorist moods? Because it almost sounds as if you are saying that your believing to be saved is greater than his desire, otherwise it is merely a potential?

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I answered your question. You don't like the way I answered it.

Your argument is that if all men aren't saved then God is a failure. This completely overlooks the fact that God's plan requires that man must choose for or against Christ. And the Bible shows that not all men are going to choose for Christ.

According to the text of Revelation, even when Jesus returns and is physically on the earth and ruling from the throne of David during the Millennial kingdom, multitudes of people are going to reject Him as shown by the fact that at the end of the Millennial kingdom (the restitution of all things) Satan will be temporarily released from the pit and incite open rebellion against Jesus' rule. Those who rebel will be devoured by fire from heaven. Then the great white throne judgment will be held and all whose names are not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will remain forever.

Nothing about that supports Universalism.

So you agree with shiloh that God did not send Jesus into the world to save the world. that when the scriptures testify that Jesus is the saviour of the world, that the world is only in reference to some. That Jesus came only to save some sinners and not all sinners.

This is getting beyond stupid.

God very first speaking of man states Let us make humankind in our image and after our likeness. God plan is laid out right from the start and in includes the whole human race. God sent Jesus in order to fulfill his plan/purpose.

All your guys post are tantamount to calling God a sinner, strong delusions or what.

Originally Posted by Jerwade

No, I am not making a case out of it, but I would like to know what the difference is between Acts 15:11 and that of 1 Timothy 2:4, do not both relate to the indicative or aorist moods? Because it almost sounds as if you are saying that your believing to be saved is greater than his desire, otherwise it is merely a potential?

There is a basic definition for the infinitive and there is addition nuances depending on the grammar and syntax, why is this so hard. In Acts that additional information does not grant a potential but one of either an infinitive of Result or Means. This is about the semantic range based upon the grammar in the text. This is seen by the following prepositional phrase - 'in the same manner.'

He believes that they are saved in the same manner as them. But I'll let Mike answer as well.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

You have been disabused of your ignorance with the actual texts of the Bible. Your decision that God's desires must always comes to pass is not true.

I ask where in the bible it says that God's desires all to have faith or that he make sinners believe NOT what you quoted. Show us where it went out of the mouth of God? Don't bother - you can't!

it is stated from the very first let us make humankind in our image and after our likeness.

This is Gods plan for humankind and the purpose Jesus was sent. You simply cannot be in the image and likeness of God without having faith or without believing.

Originally Posted by pneuma

So you agree with shiloh that God did not send Jesus into the world to save the world. that when the scriptures testify that Jesus is the saviour of the world, that the world is only in reference to some. That Jesus came only to save some sinners and not all sinners.

This is getting beyond stupid.

God very first speaking of man states Let us make humankind in our image and after our likeness. God plan is laid out right from the start and in includes the whole human race. God sent Jesus in order to fulfill his plan/purpose.

All your guys post are tantamount to calling God a sinner, strong delusions or what.

Your constant misrepresentation of the details we have so rigorously put forth is what is getting beyond stupid.

Originally Posted by pneuma

it is stated from the very first let us make humankind in our image and after our likeness.

This is Gods plan for humankind and the purpose Jesus was sent. You simply cannot be in the image and likeness of God without having faith or without believing.

And did you not read beyond that - Adam and Eve marred that image after the Fall in Chapter 3. Chapter 5 says this:

This is the record of the family line of Adam. When God created humankind, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female; when they were created, he blessed them and named them “humankind.” When Adam had lived 130 years he fathered a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and he named him Seth.

That image will be restored in the resurrection - those IN CHRIST with have that image restored.

Give up all ready!

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

And your reasons had nothing to do with context or grammar just your dumb line of reasoning about an irrelevant topic of whether the texts are illogical and then showing yourself to be illogical while accusing me of it. Brilliant line of reasoning that has nothing to do with whether the texts says what it says. That is why is said there was something wrong with your brain. The whole reason you are on this dumb trip is that you don't have anything else to spew out. And I dealt with the word cosmos! Jesus is the saviour of all types of people not just the Jews and their prejudice against many groups of people - if you don't have enough sense to see this in certain contexts there is no help for you. I showed you many of those context and you did not and can not refute it - you just deny it and repeat the same things as if posting a verse actually does something.

nah all you said about the kosmos was that it was referring to all types of people, you did NOT deal with any of the scriptures I gave in reference to the kosmos. total arrogance to think people have to believe what you say no matter what.