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I was listening to the below youtube video this morning. It's a good presentation on first understanding Universal Salvation.
One of the things he mentions at the beginning is to try to understand first - it does not mean you agree with it. But at least be open to study and understanding. Calm your urge to fight "what about this, what about that", instead listen and try to understand a viewpoint.
He also covers a lot of points we've discussed in this thread; such as relating to Romans 5, in Adam all were made sinners, every knee shall bend, etc.
Universalism is a false message because it ignores the imprecatory prayers of the righteous against the ungodly wicked. One such writing has judas in mind Ps 109
Quote:
Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;
2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the Lord, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
21 But do thou for me, O God the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.
22 For I am poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me.
23 I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust.
24 My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.
25 I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
26 Help me, O Lord my God: O save me according to thy mercy:
27 That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, Lord, hast done it.
28 Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.
29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
30 I will greatly praise the Lord with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.
Not true, I guess your silence on it means you think eternal torture is a good thing, you just won't flat out say it..
It is a difficult thing to admit, and shows the cognitive dissonance of the whole thing. God is good and lets 75% of souls be tortured forever because God respects their freedom and love never fails. This load of doublethink is what justbyfaith believes. Until they unravel the contradictions in their own mind, they won't make much progress to understand.
It is a difficult thing to admit, and shows the cognitive dissonance of the whole thing. God is good and lets 75% of souls be tortured forever because God respects their freedom and love never fails. This load of doublethink is what justbyfaith believes. Until they unravel the contradictions in their own mind, they won't make much progress to understand.
Very true, you could say it is easier for camel to go through the eye of the needle than a eternal torture believer to be accepting of UR, thankfully with God all things are possible.
More to the point, the Bible contains our ancestors' mistaken idea of God that caused them to crucify Jesus who tried to change their idea of God.
2 Cor 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
More to the point, the Bible contains our ancestors' mistaken idea of God that caused them to crucify Jesus who tried to change their idea of God.
The Old Testament was and is a shadow, and you can never get a true representation of something by its shadow. This is why we read a lot of misguided beliefs about God in that testament.
It is a difficult thing to admit, and shows the cognitive dissonance of the whole thing. God is good and lets 75% of souls be tortured forever because God respects their freedom and love never fails. This load of doublethink is what justbyfaith believes. Until they unravel the contradictions in their own mind, they won't make much progress to understand.
That IS the true Gordian Knot of fundamentalist thought. Their thoughts are essentially immune to untying because of the contradictions and inconsistencies in their "inerrant and infallible" Bible. It also contains the excuses necessary to prevent even trying because their irrational beliefs truly ARE foolishness to any rational mind but it is salvation from Hell to their minds.
I like how he denounces one of the most basic tenets of the gospel...
That justice and mercy meet at the Cross;
In that Jesus took the penalty for our sins, dying in our place;
And that the justice of God was satisfied in this so that God could show mercy to the sinner.
This man is a false teacher for he denies some of the most basic doctrines that can be found in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I think you missed the whole point of the video. I don't know how you could miss it.
On rewatching of the video it becomes extremely obvious that Paul was preaching God's plan of universal salvation throughout the book of Romans.
Romans 3
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 5
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
...
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
...
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Romans 8
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
...
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved
...
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified
Romans 9
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
...
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
...
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
...
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not?
Romans 10
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
...
15 As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news.
Romans 11
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!
...
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened
...
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! ...
15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
...
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.
...
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 13:9 ... Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romasn 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
This is just a summary of some of the key points. I encourage you to go and read all of Romans with an open mind for understanding.
The plan is outlined in detail. And so all Israel will be saved, but not before the fullness of the gentiles come in! The plan is for all to be saved; all will be made righteous, just as all were made sinners. God has bound all over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.
There is a process at work here, and an order. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. The firstfruits of the harvest - the sons of God - is not the end of the harvest. It is the firstfruits that will release the entire creation from its bondage to decay.
Its actually good news, but God has concealed this plan in plain sight. Why does He hide this plan? So that each in their own order can be humbled and come to a knowledge of the truth.
The plan is for all to be saved; all will be made righteous, just as all were made sinners.
All in Christ will be made righteous; just as all in Adam were sinners from birth.
Those who are not in Christ will not be made righteous.
"Ye must be born again."
Those who are not born again do not have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.
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More to the point, the Bible contains our ancestors' mistaken idea of God that caused them to crucify Jesus who tried to change their idea of God.