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All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit; and I have determined that to be referring primarily to the kjv of the Holy Bible.
I am not rejecting the Holy Spirit in receiving His words that have been inspired by Him.
The fact of the matter is, Jesus died on the Cross as a propitiation for our sins (appeasement of the wrath and justice of our Almighty Father); and this is the gospel by which we can alone be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 3:25, Romans 5:1, Romans 5:9).
In rejecting this gospel you reject the message of the Holy Spirit who is also a God of judgment.
I do NOT reject the Gospel that Jesus Christ is our Savior. I just reject the primitive, barbaric, ignorant, and frankly, antiChrist reason YOU think I need to believe it. Everything about Jesus Christ and His ministry contradicts your belief about God's True Nature and Holy Spirit as described, Divinely Revealed, and demonstrated by Jesus Christ Himself!!!
You are mired in our ancestors' ancient ignorance about God and cannot extricate yourself from it by reading the wrathful and vengeful interpretations of God's nature. Jesus unambiguously revealed God is agape love and forgiveness NOT wrath and vengeance. Our ancestors got it wrong and you have followed them NOT Jesus!!!
I do NOT reject the Gospel that Jesus Christ is our Savior. I just reject the primitive, barbaric, ignorant, and frankly, antiChrist reason YOU think I need to believe it. Everything about Jesus Christ and His ministry contradicts your belief about God's True Nature and Holy Spirit as described, Divinely Revealed, and demonstrated by Jesus Christ Himself!!!
You are mired in our ancestors' ancient ignorance about God and cannot extricate yourself from it by reading the wrathful and vengeful interpretations of God's nature. Jesus unambiguously revealed God is agape love and forgiveness NOT wrath and vengeance. Our ancestors got it wrong and you have followed them NOT Jesus!!!
Romans 5:9 is clear...we are saved from wrath through the shedding of His blood.
Romans 3:25 is clear in saying that this is a propitiation (appeasement of the wrath and justice of our Almighty Father).
Romans 5:9 is clear...we are saved from wrath through the shedding of His blood.
Romans 3:25 is clear in saying that this is a propitiation (appeasement of the wrath and justice of our Almighty Father).
Our ancestors knew no other God but a wrathful and vengeful one. That is why they described and phrased things the way they did and why they rejected Jesus!!! You are rejecting Jesus as "too wimpy" to be God for the same reasons!!! You will NOT be glad that you did, brother.
What does faith even mean for you? How do you define it?
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In other words. The thing hoped for, although not yet seen with the natural eye becomes fulfilled in the natural, when we hold faith in the thing hoped for in the unseen world.
This is where most christians blinkered by their beliefs in the Bible struggle with UR, they cannot see how it can be because of their deep seated beliefs, and thus cannot see it in the unseen first. Basically living from the outside in.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In other words. The thing hoped for, although not yet seen with the natural eye becomes fulfilled in the natural, when we hold faith in the thing hoped for in the unseen world.
Okay, I agree with this.
So once you have seen, how can it be possible to have faith? Faith, by definition, must be in something unseen.
Once a person dies and everything is made clear to him, it is no longer definitionally possible for him to have the virtue of faith.
So once you have seen, how can it be possible to have faith? Faith, by definition, must be in something unseen.
Once a person dies and everything is made clear to him, it is no longer definitionally possible for him to have the virtue of faith.
Then he will be saved by judgment.
Check this out:
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
God's grace and God's judgments both do the same thing: they teach us righteousness! One way may be a little less harsh than the other way, but the end result is the same. Guess what happens when you learn righteousness? You learn what is right and wrong so you no longer do wrong - this is repentance!
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
So God brings people to repentance, and teaches all to be righteous! That is how it happens before death - through grace & faith; after death it happens through judgment.
Then he will be saved by judgment.
Check this out:
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
God's grace and God's judgments both do the same thing: they teach us righteousness! One way may be a little less harsh than the other way, but the end result is the same. Guess what happens when you learn righteousness? You learn what is right and wrong so you no longer do wrong - this is repentance!
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
So God brings people to repentance, and teaches all to be righteous! That is how it happens before death - through grace & faith; after death it happens through judgment.
Look at those verses again. All are addressed to the living and cannot pertain to the afterlife. I'll bold the key words:
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Look at those verses again. All are addressed to the living and cannot pertain to the afterlife. I'll bold the key words:
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
We could debate whether that verse is specifically only for one time here in the world or not. But there is no expiry date that says God must change how He judges people. It does show the purpose of God's judgments.
Furthermore we know EVERYONE will be resurrected to judgment (Rev 20 etc.).
Every knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (which can only happen by the Holy spirit) - it is a joyous profession, NOT a forced confession.
God desires and wills all people to be saved AND COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH (1 Tim 2:4).
When you come to a knowledge of the truth - you have learned righteousness. So once you have LEARNED righteousness - you actually know it - is God going to discard you for eternity, now that He went to all the trouble of teaching you righteousness? NO!
Romans 5 sums it up:
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
"the many" who were made sinners, is the same "the many" who will be made righteous. ALL. Life for ALL people.
How are they made righteous? By God's judgments and because God wills that all people COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
God's plan in a nutshell (this is the Universalism thread after-all).
So once you have seen, how can it be possible to have faith? Faith, by definition, must be in something unseen.
Once a person dies and everything is made clear to him, it is no longer definitionally possible for him to have the virtue of faith.
The problem is not seeing things from the right perspective or what the purpose of the kingdom is - and faith does not stands alone, in the Scriptures it is a precursor to what we (collectively) are looking towards that is still future and its the 2 that go together as one
I think that it has more to do with what the visible and invisible are
The internal realm is the unseen and is about intentions, motivations, reactions, intellectual, feeling, etc
It is in our interactions with others that the intentions get turned into actions in the visible/external realm and a body is necessary for that to happen
The resurrection is where both are joined together again
There is inner/outer, there is greater/lesser, there is upper/lower
The church is not about saving the individuals in it for themselves, it is about saving them so they are able to be part of the higher/heavenly realm
The point is we should not be thinking of our own ‘self’ or our own affiliation, whether it is Jewish, gentile, bonded, free, male, female
Or rather in today’s terms JW, Baptist, Pentecostal, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, COC, Methodist, Presbyterian, or whatever name/calling there is
All those designations pertain to the seen, visible, systemic ‘world’ - and are like gold, silver, rocks, trees, that humansmake into things
Deuteronomy looks forward to this situation and time (and we can now look back over that time too)
Deu 1:9**And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone:
Deu 1:10**The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Deu 1:11**(The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)
Deu 1:12**How can I myself alone bear your cumbrance, and your burden, and your strife?
Deu 1:13**Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
Idolatry Forbidden
Deu 4:15**Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
Deu 4:16**Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deu 4:17**The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deu 4:18**The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 4:19**And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Deu 4:20**But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
Deu 4:21**Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance:
Deu 4:22**But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land.
Deu 4:23**Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
Deu 4:24**For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Last edited by Meerkat2; 06-30-2022 at 04:22 PM..
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