Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Peacemakers are not those who promote the peace of man but the peace of God. Big difference.
“Peace is my gift to you. My peace is my farewell to you. I do not give it as the world does.”
Jesus was not speaking of the physical aspect of turning your cheek.
I agree that Jesus was Not speaking of the physical aspect of turning the other cheek.
A ' slap on the cheek ' ( Like when slapped with a glove to be in a duel ) was an insult.
As an insult or being provoked then to follow the advice as found at Romans 12:18-19
Jesus is the best! So....
Wasn't Jesus a pacifist who led a life by example for us to follow?........................
I find Jesus is 'Commander in Chief ' ( Hail to the Chief! ) of God's kingdom for a thousand years.
Jesus is the Warrier King of Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 with 'angelic armies' with him.
So, No, Jesus is Not a pacifist because he backs God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
The difference lies in that Commander Jesus with angelic armies will do the fighting.
His followers on Earth will be neutral, and at Armageddon follow the advice of Isaiah 26:20.
Through Warrier Jesus then God will bring an end to all wars on Earth - Psalm 46:9
I think in context this is not advocating anything violent, in fact the very next sentence is a stronger man stealing from that strong man.... In context I think it is a story about following God's word.
The whole turn your cheek and love your enemies verse seems pacifist to me and I think the peacemaker one can be as well.
Yes...I was alive...but still in smelly diapers ….God cries when we kill each other in his name.
Eisenhower, although a military man, was a devout Christian and his mom was a Christian Pacifist. I think he brings up a good point of spending our money, genius, sweat, and hope on military things too much and not enough on building up human's condition.
I worry that some people....not you per se....interpret "whatever amount....to defend" as it is okay to launch preemptive violent strikes that actually were only necessary in the eye of the beholder but imaginary in the eye's of God.
Well...if they only use violence in defense...they might be a "Non-Aggressionist" where they disavow first aggression, but will be aggressive if first met with aggression.
Yeah....and I am not smart enough to make a solid argument for pacifism in all cases. Perhaps...at some point violence had to be used against Nazi Germany in order to stop them after they got going. However, if the German Christians were pacifists...like I believe Jesus was...I think Hitler doesn't get a war.
Hitler claimed that he didn't like Christianity, because it makes people meek and flabby. That other religions made people more war-like. Imagine if he had a nation full of pacifists. No one to invade anywhere.
You bring up a valid point that pacifism is easier said than done in some extreme situations.
However, Privilege??? I doubt it is such a privilege. Quaker Jeanette Ranking voted against entering WWI and later WWII. She was heavily slandered for both.
As a pacifist, I questioned US foreign drone policy in this thread right here.... as causing us more harm than good....I got accused of hating America, being "limp wristed," and another sent me a private message saying that they confused me with a #@G....
Last year in high school some boys used my pacifist arguments in class to call me insane behind my back online.
Do I really have a privilege in being a pacifist?!?! Perhaps in some ways, but not all ways.
Supporting US military policy and the industrial military complex seems to be mainstream and what is most accepted...that is more socially viable and has more privilege. At least to me it seems that way.
To test pacifist privilege...try running for president as a pacifist that wants to cut military spending to feed the poor versus someone who says we don't spend enough on the military because there are boogeymen.
You as are the other posters in this thread...a good and intelligent person. I fear that a "strong offense" leads to going on offense too often. We've been in Afghanistan for....basically my entire life almost.....do 100% of the locals see us as a "peacemaker" or something less appealing?
Martin Luther King found the best offense was pacifism. He got no attention from the media when he was humanely arrested. He got lots of positive attention when Bull Connor met him with violence and his protest didn't fight back.
Im not sure of that, after all, in the Old Testament, it was God himself that instructed his faithful to go out and slaughter without mercy, even women, children, entire cities full of people, just for blasphemy!!
The time also, that God sends 2 bears to maul and kill a group of teenagers...for making jokes about a balding man!
Im not sure of that, after all, in the Old Testament, it was God himself that instructed his faithful to go out and slaughter without mercy, even women, children, entire cities full of people, just for blasphemy!!
The time also, that God sends 2 bears to maul and kill a group of teenagers...for making jokes about a balding man!
I do wonder how you came to your ^ above ^ conclusions____________
It was more than just making jokes about a bald man. They showed hatred for a man of God.
God did Not gift Earth to the wicked.
Since Earth is God's creation then He has eminent domain of it.
God promised at Genesis 12:3 that ALL families of Earth will be blessed.
ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 22:18
In order for that blessing to happen wicked people could Not be allowed to kill off righteous or upright people.
God promised Abraham a land, but the land became so polluted with wickedness as per Genesis 13:13.
The wicked destroy the righteous, so to prevent that from happening is why there was execution of the wicked.
- Not because the Israelites were so righteous but because of the wickedness of others - Deuteronomy 9:4-5.
If God would have permitted the wicked ( people beyond reform ) to continue they would destroy all others.
In the New Testament (Christian Scriptures) then I suppose you will also disagree with Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
Why aren't more of us pacifists? It seems like we have the technology to destroy the world and we need love to prevent it from happening.
Probably 6 years ago or so I was naive and thought all Christians were pacifists or close to it. I know....some of you will say I am still very naïve.
I don't have anything against veterans or the military....and they do what they believe is right just as I do. In fact, you know I like to do community service at retirement homes...well of course I don't have favorites there, but I enjoy playing games and listening to veterans
Spoiler
I lied...the veterans tend to be the best and most fun at the retirement home...shhh, don't tell the others!!!
.
I am sure there are angles that I am missing.
It's a matter of conscience and each individual needs to decide what course they will follow. So like you, it's not my place to judge others who choose a different course and don't have anything against veterans or those who serve in the military. In fact, I'm personal friends with members of my faith who served. They wouldn't make the same choice now because of what they've come to believe.
My opinion is... it's difficult even life threatening to follow Jesus's footsteps when it comes to non violence.
Most religious leaders find some way of convincing their followers that God approves. However, take a stand contrary to the majority and it's like putting a giant bullseye on yourself. Make no mistake, Christians are imprisoned even executed for following the "footsteps" of Jesus, on this issue.
I'd recommend watching Hacksaw Ridge. It's based on a true story and offers insight on what happens when a person attempts to follow their conscience.
I believe in non-aggression, rather than strict pacifism, though I do think that there's a strong case to be made from the example of Jesus that even defensive force is not justified. My reading of the gospel leaves it very clear that Christians are not to initiate violence against another person, ever.
Even if I do allow for defensive force, though, it is *extremely* narrowly defined as only the proportional force required to prevent an immediate threat. So, physically stopping someone who is in the process of assaulting someone else is okay; tracking down the guy who hit your wife and punching him after the fact is not. This also means that I don't believe Christians should support the death penalty (or indeed any retributive justice) or should serve in the military, and preemptive force against a presumed threat does not meet my strict criteria.
For me, I don't see how an honest reading of scripture could lead one to any other conclusion. I can't see any justification whatsoever for the blood-crazed go-army patriotism that seems to pervade some churches; I believe the church should be always a force counteracting the state, never supporting it. But, I realize I'm pretty radical in this, and I know and love many good people whose views are diametrically opposed to me.
You bring up a valid point that pacifism is easier said than done in some extreme situations.
However, Privilege??? I doubt it is such a privilege. Quaker Jeanette Ranking voted against entering WWI and later WWII. She was heavily slandered for both.
As a pacifist, I questioned US foreign drone policy in [URL="https://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/3124514-us-accidentally-kills-60-civilians-afghanistan.html"]this thread right here[/URL].... as causing us more harm than good....I got accused of hating America, being "limp wristed," and another sent me a private message saying that they confused me with a #@G....
Last year in high school some boys used my pacifist arguments in class to call me insane behind my back online.
Do I really have a privilege in being a pacifist?!?! Perhaps in some ways, but not all ways.
Supporting US military policy and the industrial military complex seems to be mainstream and what is most accepted...that is more socially viable and has more privilege. At least to me it seems that way.
To test pacifist privilege...try running for president as a pacifist that wants to cut military spending to feed the poor versus someone who says we don't spend enough on the military because there are boogeymen.
Yes, privilege. And you are unwittingly demonstrating that: having people make fun of you or slander you involves very little personal risk. It hurts and it is humiliating, but very little is at risk. Put pacifism into practice in the face of direct or structural/institutional violence, and you will likely have a better understanding of why most people are not sold on pacifism.
Also, not being a pacifist doesn’t mean that one supports US military policy or the military industrial complex. Just as pacifism is not inherently synonymous with being a peacemaker.
Why aren't more of us pacifists? It seems like we have the technology to destroy the world and we need love to prevent it from happening.
Probably 6 years ago or so I was naive and thought all Christians were pacifists or close to it. I know....some of you will say I am still very naïve.
I don't have anything against veterans or the military....and they do what they believe is right just as I do. In fact, you know I like to do community service at retirement homes...well of course I don't have favorites there, but I enjoy playing games and listening to veterans
Spoiler
I lied...the veterans tend to be the best and most fun at the retirement home...shhh, don't tell the others!!!
.
I am sure there are angles that I am missing.
Having read through the thread I can sympathize with everyone view, but is that the view of man or the view of God?
Did anyone read the scriptures QB gave?
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." -Jesus, Mathew 5:9
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
"“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -Jesus Mathew 5:38-49
Jesus points out that in order to be called children of the Father we must be a pacifist.
When Jesus was going to the stake he could have called 12 legions of angels to deliver him, but he did not do that as that would have required violence.
And to cap it off we are to be kingdom people and if you read what the kingdom will be like you will see there is no more war, any type of violence is simply done away with.
Now we can either live with the kingdom of God principal or the kingdom of man principal.
Every Christian I know of says they want to be like Christ, but when the rubber hits the road they reject the Christlike life and return to their own ways.
And that is totally understandable because Peter did the same thing, but that does not make it the right way.
Now saying all that, as of right now if someone tried to hurt my wife or kids I would take them out in a heart beat, but all that shows is my lack of Christ-likeness.
Yes, privilege. And you are unwittingly demonstrating that: having people make fun of you or slander you involves very little personal risk. It hurts and it is humiliating, but very little is at risk. Put pacifism into practice in the face of direct or structural/institutional violence, and you will likely have a better understanding of why most people are not sold on pacifism.
Also, not being a pacifist doesn’t mean that one supports US military policy or the military industrial complex. Just as pacifism is not inherently synonymous with being a peacemaker.
Pacifists put themselves in harm's way.
MLK preached Pacifist Christianity and his followers were attacked on numerous occasions and he said don't hit back and don't hate.
Alice Paul was the same...also a Christian Pacifist.
Norman Morrison was a Christian Pacifist who set himself on fire as a way to try and stop the blood of the Vietnam War.
I've read stories of people punching and shoving Christian Pacifists to prove their own manliness and have a laugh testing their true pacifism.
P.S. I never said that only pacifists oppose the industrial military complex. But all true pacifists do.
MLK preached Pacifist Christianity and his followers were attacked on numerous occasions and he said don't hit back and don't hate.
Alice Paul was the same...also a Christian Pacifist.
Norman Morrison was a Christian Pacifist who set himself on fire as a way to try and stop the blood of the Vietnam War.
I've read stories of people punching and shoving Christian Pacifists to prove their own manliness and have a laugh testing their true pacifism.
P.S. I never said that only pacifists oppose the industrial military complex. But all true pacifists do.
Good comments btw.
But that's my point: they didn't just believe in pacifism, they put it into action at their own peril. I take issue with one claiming to be a pacifist when they haven't had to put it into action; by having to fight against one's natural survival instincts.
MLK Jr. did not promote pacifism as simply the absence of violence, war, or retaliation (negative peace); in his Letter from Birmingham Jail, he talks of nonviolent direct action as a method of purposely creating chaos and discord so oppressors have no choice but to confront the issue (positive peace).
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
….God cries when we kill each other in his name.
