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I don't really know how to phrase this, I don't think that I am wicked to others now. I have been and have been haunted now that I serve Jehovah for what I did in my past which brings tears to my eyes often. I wonder if people have to vent, it seems like many like to hurt those that are down. Being disfellowshipped I see the worst part of Christians Jn 16:2 and I personally do not think Jehovah approves of it. The thing is, if He doesn't we should have compassion for our tormentors as did Jesus. I have never treated a disfellowshipped one the way I have been treated. What will be hard for me is simply picking up where I left off in relationships like I will be expected to do if I am reinstated. I think I will find it very hard to do, once trust is broken, and truth is revealed, it is perhaps impossible to overcome it for an imperfect individual.
Powerful words there Highway.
Scriptures make it pretty clear that those who do not forgive will themselves not be forgiven.
You must also do all your part too:
-repent,
-ask forgiveness (to give them the opportunity to forgive),
-and make amends ('settle with your opponent, the one transgressed , while you still can' before you are before God's court).
If you have completed all that, Christ can make you whole again and fill your heart with love as no other can, and heal the others,
here and now,
if you put your trust in Him.
I don't really know how to phrase this, I don't think that I am wicked to others now. I have been and have been haunted now that I serve Jehovah for what I did in my past which brings tears to my eyes often. I wonder if people have to vent, it seems like many like to hurt those that are down. Being disfellowshipped I see the worst part of Christians Jn 16:2 and I personally do not think Jehovah approves of it. The thing is, if He doesn't we should have compassion for our tormentors as did Jesus. I have never treated a disfellowshipped one the way I have been treated. What will be hard for me is simply picking up where I left off in relationships like I will be expected to do if I am reinstated. I think I will find it very hard to do, once trust is broken, and truth is revealed, it is perhaps impossible to overcome it for an imperfect individual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou
Powerful words there Highway.
Scriptures make it pretty clear that those who do not forgive will themselves not be forgiven.
You must also do all your part too:
-repent,
-ask forgiveness (to give them the opportunity to forgive),
-and make amends ('settle with your opponent, the one transgressed , while you still can' before you are before God's court).
If you have completed all that, Christ can make you whole again and fill your heart with love as no other can, and heal the others,
here and now,
if you put your trust in Him.
Highway
Ccc makes some good points about how we are to handle ourselves
Part of being a Christian is holding on to the good and true and not aligning ourselves with what is not, while we are human and will always have beliefs, notions, ideas that are not absolutely true, or don’t align with others opinions, beliefs, doctrines what we are to hold on to is our personal integrity, honesty, etc and I’m pretty sure that we can not go back, we can agree to disagree, understand others have different ways, etc
If you were in the wrong, and see that now, absolutely you would need to ask forgiveness to be admitted back to their congregation, but if you still feel you did nothing wrong to be DF’ed you can’t compromise your integrity that caused the rift in the first place between you and the JW organisation. And being DF’ed the way the JW’s do it is just plain wrong in my opinion, that is not part of Jesus teachings. What we are to do is not hold on to the past though, I believe we should put it into perspective, we can be remorseful and repent which means changing, and then move forward, you can still be true to the perspectives that you believe are correct that you received from that organisation.
I heard something today that reminded me of the battle between justice and mercy. I wonder if that affects a person's religious beliefs. Do you believe human beings are mostly good or mostly wicked or is it something else entirely? Do you think it reflects on your religious views or do you think it is a product of your religious views?
I'll go first: I believe people are mostly good. I don't think there is even such a thing as a straight good person or a wicked person except for a few on the fringes on either side of that.
I think anyone that honestly looks at society knows that we are basically bad. The only way to keep order is the rule of law. People do not naturally do the right thing.
I think anyone that honestly looks at society knows that we are basically bad. The only way to keep order is the rule of law. People do not naturally do the right thing.
I don’t think it is as black/white as that BF
People generally, naturally do both good and bad things, Paul actually says there is a problem with the law, because even though law is instituted for a good purpose, it is not able to solve our problems as it is inflexible and only punishes wrong, it is “weak” - it does not have the capability to affect our motivations, it is not inspirational and it is certainly subject to abuse
I agree We do need law and order, however we also need love and mercy - it is about the proper balance between the 2 and understanding the love, mercy, grace, etc is always higher than the law/order which is a human tool
Joh 1:17**For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Mat 5:17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Life in the Spirit
Rom 8:1**There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2**For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3**For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4**That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5**For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6**For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7**Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Isa 55:7**Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8**For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9**For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10**For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11**So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
To give my view on the OP, it is not about humans being naturally either good or bad it is about our gullibility and fallibility, our impressionable nature which is an intrinsic part of our humanity, our essential duality (both individually and collectively)
I don't really know how to phrase this, I don't think that I am wicked to others now. I have been and have been haunted now that I serve Jehovah for what I did in my past which brings tears to my eyes often. I wonder if people have to vent, it seems like many like to hurt those that are down. Being disfellowshipped I see the worst part of Christians Jn 16:2 and I personally do not think Jehovah approves of it. The thing is, if He doesn't we should have compassion for our tormentors as did Jesus. I have never treated a disfellowshipped one the way I have been treated. What will be hard for me is simply picking up where I left off in relationships like I will be expected to do if I am reinstated. I think I will find it very hard to do, once trust is broken, and truth is revealed, it is perhaps impossible to overcome it for an imperfect individual.
Do you believe that you have to be attached to the Watchtower in some way or can you go off on your own and serve Yahweh?
I think compassion is greatly helped by understanding. The JWs look bizarre by most people's standards but having been inside I know where they are coming from. They are told to shun you or face discipline themselves. Some of them are haughty about it but there are JWs that refuse to shun tho they are few. Shunning is abuse and I think some people inside the organization sense that. On the reddit sub I go to a young 20something gay, atheist young man had disassociated himself. He was to go meet his elder dad at a restaurant and we all tried to support him as we knew he was about to lose his whole family. He comes back on after that meeting with his dad and told us his dad said this :"no one is going to tell me I can't talk to my own son". Wow.
If it turns out what I said about the Watchtower joining the UN as an NGO was true how would you feel about that?
I think anyone that honestly looks at society knows that we are basically bad. The only way to keep order is the rule of law. People do not naturally do the right thing.
The problem with your view is the people are not naturally all bad or good. There are people who do little to no good and a lot of bad and we need some rules to try to control them after the fact. But there are some good people who do little to no bad and a lot of good and there are people in all shades of grey between them.
The driver is our selfishness and survival mandate which IS automatic but we need to develop our spirit with other motivations to override the automatic when it is desirable to do so. Religion played that role in providing other motivations. There has been no adequate or equivalent replacement yet.
I think anyone that honestly looks at society knows that we are basically bad. The only way to keep order is the rule of law. People do not naturally do the right thing.
I don't see that.
Like no one does the right thing or few? I've asked here before if God kept anyone from doing anything they really wanted to and most people said no. Katz would take up wine drinking but that's about it except for one weirdo who wanted to murder Ronnie Milsap.
I think anyone that honestly looks at society knows that we are basically bad. The only way to keep order is the rule of law. People do not naturally do the right thing.
I agree BF! It's like using a lock, the lock won't stop a criminal, but it will help keep an honest person honest to the degree of our understanding of honesty.
Take off the lock and the honest are not so honest anymore, as a general rule!
I heard something today that reminded me of the battle between justice and mercy. I wonder if that affects a person's religious beliefs. Do you believe human beings are mostly good or mostly wicked or is it something else entirely? Do you think it reflects on your religious views or do you think it is a product of your religious views?
I'll go first: I believe people are mostly good. I don't think there is even such a thing as a straight good person or a wicked person except for a few on the fringes on either side of that.
Scriptures make it pretty clear that those who do not forgive will themselves not be forgiven.
You must also do all your part too:
-repent,
-ask forgiveness (to give them the opportunity to forgive),
-and make amends ('settle with your opponent, the one transgressed , while you still can' before you are before God's court).
If you have completed all that, Christ can make you whole again and fill your heart with love as no other can, and heal the others,
here and now,
if you put your trust in Him.
Yes I fully agree. It is nice that you are aware of, and posted that we must be very forgiving, if we are to expect forgiveness. In reality, the meager stuff that others do to us, is baby stuff as to what we do against Jehovah.
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