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I'm talking about "believe" in the sense of affirming the truth or reality of something, and that's the kind of belief I don't get to decide on. Belief decisions are not made by my thinking ego, but rather they are given to me by something other than my personal volition.
For example, do I accept as factual the claim that it's raining outside? My first step in establishing what my belief is will NOT be to make a decision about whether I believe it is raining. Rather, I consult with experience to find out what I believe. I hear the telltale patter of raindrops on the roof, and discover that I believe it is raining. I didn't decide to believe that. The belief was given to me by circumstance and by an automatic metal process. I can't believe things "on purpose". I can only look to see whether I believe.
If we think that God commands us to believe, that sets up a horrible mess that is familiar to many of us. We HAVE TO believe, so we shove any contrary thoughts or experiences down into a deep place where we won't see them. This, of course, sets up a gnarly psychological complex in which all that shoving-down of subversive thoughts gives them greater and greater power in a shadowy and menacing way. Which makes us shove down all the harder, which makes the shadow all the more fearsome.
The way out of the cycle is to adopt a new understanding of belief. Forget "believe that X is true" and substitute instead "believe in X". Do I believe THAT God exists? No. When I consult my factual beliefs I find that I don't have the experience needed to make such a bold claim. However, I can decide to believe IN God, which is a different thing.
To believe in God means to love God, or at least to love the concept of God. To believe in God also means that you decide to act as if God were factual - - to follow His teaching and even to pray to Him every day. "You might not be there, Lord, but I need to talk with you anyway."
Believing in God is a pure leap of faith. I can't know, I can't affirm as factual; so I decide to believe IN God. That way, there are no facts to affirm, and thus no contrary, subversive thoughts to shove down into the unconscious pit.
You could call this a kind of Christian agnosticism. Thoughts?
Hi Arizona, believing in God does not equate to love James 2:19 observing His commandments does 1 Jn 5:3. I honestly believe that there is a percentage of doubt in the existence of God in all believers, but few will admit it. Believers do not base their belief blindly however. Joshua made a great statement: (Joshua 23:14) . . .I am about to die, and you well know with all your heart and with all your soul that not one word out of all the good promises that Jehovah your God has spoken to you has failed. They have all come true for you. Not one word of them has failed.
Impossible for humans to liberate themselves from the strongest world power, anyone can see the hand of Jehovah in their liberation. No doubt if you had been there, His existence would leave you with no doubt. Today the people of God have seen so much more by way of fulfilled prophecy. We see the fulfillment of the signs Jesus gave fulfilled right before our eyes, so there is evidence of the existence of God, and clear information on His moving forward with His purpose. Being human it is very difficult to put out of our minds any doubt, but there is definitely evidence to support His existence via fulfilled prophecy recorded in His word.
It is not logical to believe IN something that you don't have evidence for the existence of. I would never believe IN God if I didn't have evidence that God exists. That evidence is of a historical nature. Jesus existed. His disciples believed that they saw Jesus alive again after his crucifixion. Scholars, even critical scholars accept that the disciples believed that they saw the risen Christ even if those same scholars do not themselves accept the resurrection as historically true. The naturalistic explanations for why the disciples believed they saw the risen Christ can be ruled out. That leaves the only explanation being the they actually did see the risen Jesus. Therefore I conclude that God exists.
Pretend just for the sake of discussion that I'm a communist (I'm not, but roll with me here) who dreams of a society where the workers have taken control of the means of production. But when I search my world for an example of communism, I find no workers that have risen up, no books that have been written about it, and no one but me who has communist ideas. Much as I like the idea of communism, it doesn't exist in my world.
Mike, you find it logically inconsistent to believe in something when you don't have a belief that it exists. If that's true, I can't believe in communism unless I also believe that communism exists. Can that be right?
Pretend just for the sake of discussion that I'm a communist (I'm not, but roll with me here) who dreams of a society where the workers have taken control of the means of production. But when I search my world for an example of communism, I find no workers that have risen up, no books that have been written about it, and no one but me who has communist ideas. Much as I like the idea of communism, it doesn't exist in my world.
Mike, you find it logically inconsistent to believe in something when you don't have a belief that it exists. If that's true, I can't believe in communism unless I also believe that communism exists. Can that be right?
Your argument is flawed. Yes, it's inconsistent because were dealing with the existence of God, not in a principle or a supposed ideal. (communism in your example). God either exists or he doesn't. If he doesn't exist then it's ridiculous to believe in him.
And that's as far as I'm going with this as it's prohibited from questioning the existence of God on the Christianity forum.
I'm talking about "believe" in the sense of affirming the truth or reality of something, and that's the kind of belief I don't get to decide on. Belief decisions are not made by my thinking ego, but rather they are given to me by something other than my personal volition.
For example, do I accept as factual the claim that it's raining outside? My first step in establishing what my belief is will NOT be to make a decision about whether I believe it is raining. Rather, I consult with experience to find out what I believe. I hear the telltale patter of raindrops on the roof, and discover that I believe it is raining. I didn't decide to believe that. The belief was given to me by circumstance and by an automatic metal process. I can't believe things "on purpose". I can only look to see whether I believe.
If we think that God commands us to believe, that sets up a horrible mess that is familiar to many of us. We HAVE TO believe, so we shove any contrary thoughts or experiences down into a deep place where we won't see them. This, of course, sets up a gnarly psychological complex in which all that shoving-down of subversive thoughts gives them greater and greater power in a shadowy and menacing way. Which makes us shove down all the harder, which makes the shadow all the more fearsome.
The way out of the cycle is to adopt a new understanding of belief. Forget "believe that X is true" and substitute instead "believe in X". Do I believe THAT God exists? No. When I consult my factual beliefs I find that I don't have the experience needed to make such a bold claim. However, I can decide to believe IN God, which is a different thing.
To believe in God means to love God, or at least to love the concept of God. To believe in God also means that you decide to act as if God were factual - - to follow His teaching and even to pray to Him every day. "You might not be there, Lord, but I need to talk with you anyway."
Believing in God is a pure leap of faith. I can't know, I can't affirm as factual; so I decide to believe IN God. That way, there are no facts to affirm, and thus no contrary, subversive thoughts to shove down into the unconscious pit.
You could call this a kind of Christian agnosticism. Thoughts?
Its a leap of faith in the beginning and may continue that way for most, its just not for everyone.
There are ways to test God.
There is also proof of God in the language, but you would first have to spend a million hours learning the language.
God says," If you do this, I will give you that."
Problem is, the majority are not willing to make huge sacrifices in order to recieve and get proof.
Its a leap of faith in the beginning and may continue that way for most, its just not for everyone.
There are ways to test God.
There is also proof of God in the language, but you would first have to spend a million hours learning the language.
God says," If you do this, I will give you that."
Problem is, the majority are not willing to make huge sacrifices in order to recieve and get proof.
And it seems to me the majority are not even called to question or get proof anyway
It’s like in a physical body, all working together but each part of the body has its own place and function and there is a lot of inner working that is not seen or known by the outer/sensory bits
Today the people of God have seen so much more by way of fulfilled prophecy. We see the fulfillment of the signs Jesus gave fulfilled right before our eyes, so there is evidence of the existence of God, and clear information on His moving forward with His purpose.
I suppose you better flee to the mountains - if you are in Judea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by highway54
I have, Isa 2:2, 3
No doubt, you will have to be retaught to walk in his ways!
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