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I'm talking about "believe" in the sense of affirming the truth or reality of something, and that's the kind of belief I don't get to decide on. Belief decisions are not made by my thinking ego, but rather they are given to me by something other than my personal volition.
For example, do I accept as factual the claim that it's raining outside? My first step in establishing what my belief is will NOT be to make a decision about whether I believe it is raining. Rather, I consult with experience to find out what I believe. I hear the telltale patter of raindrops on the roof, and discover that I believe it is raining. I didn't decide to believe that. The belief was given to me by circumstance and by an automatic metal process. I can't believe things "on purpose". I can only look to see whether I believe.
If we think that God commands us to believe, that sets up a horrible mess that is familiar to many of us. We HAVE TO believe, so we shove any contrary thoughts or experiences down into a deep place where we won't see them. This, of course, sets up a gnarly psychological complex in which all that shoving-down of subversive thoughts gives them greater and greater power in a shadowy and menacing way. Which makes us shove down all the harder, which makes the shadow all the more fearsome.
The way out of the cycle is to adopt a new understanding of belief. Forget "believe that X is true" and substitute instead "believe in X". Do I believe THAT God exists? No. When I consult my factual beliefs I find that I don't have the experience needed to make such a bold claim. However, I can decide to believe IN God, which is a different thing.
To believe in God means to love God, or at least to love the concept of God. To believe in God also means that you decide to act as if God were factual - - to follow His teaching and even to pray to Him every day. "You might not be there, Lord, but I need to talk with you anyway."
Believing in God is a pure leap of faith. I can't know, I can't affirm as factual; so I decide to believe IN God. That way, there are no facts to affirm, and thus no contrary, subversive thoughts to shove down into the unconscious pit.
You could call this a kind of Christian agnosticism. Thoughts?
You started off saying that you don't get to decide what to believe and you ended up saying that you decide to believe IN God. A bit of a contradiction there.
Not really, Mike. What I did was set up two different kinds of belief:
1) Belief that
2) Belief in
Belief that God exists is a factual claim. Belief in God is not - it is a decision to act in accord with God, even if there is not sufficient evidence to make existential claims about Him. I can't decide to believe that, but I can decide to believe in. Hope that clears it up a bit.
I don't see or subscribe to the philosophy that "God commands us to believe". But then again, I focus more on Jesus, than God / the father, since IMO, he's taken over as the leading example. The torch has been passed. And no, I don't consider them to be the same being. As I point out daily on this forum, there's a huge difference between the OT ways of God/Jehovah, vs. Jesus / NT.
I go with what has been described as Jesus "knocking", and we have the opportunity to open and let him in. He's not yelling, or banging, or forcing us to do anything. And he'll gently move on if the person isn't interested, but there will still be a symbolic 'calling card' left that he will always be around and available.
I've opened the door, and kept it open, and freely welcome him in. And after decades, I've learned and picked up on much that solidifies understanding, that is natural and definitive. There's no need for any commanding or forcing. Sad that others don't see that or haven't experienced it, especially those who call themselves "Christian". In the absence of that basic but essential foundation, it must be like a house built on gummi worms or Play-Doh.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 10-14-2021 at 02:49 PM..
Not really, Mike. What I did was set up two different kinds of belief:
1) Belief that
2) Belief in
Belief that God exists is a factual claim. Belief in God is not - it is a decision to act in accord with God, even if there is not sufficient evidence to make existential claims about Him. I can't decide to believe that, but I can decide to believe in. Hope that clears it up a bit.
It is not logical to believe IN something that you don't have evidence for the existence of. I would never believe IN God if I didn't have evidence that God exists. That evidence is of a historical nature. Jesus existed. His disciples believed that they saw Jesus alive again after his crucifixion. Scholars, even critical scholars accept that the disciples believed that they saw the risen Christ even if those same scholars do not themselves accept the resurrection as historically true. The naturalistic explanations for why the disciples believed they saw the risen Christ can be ruled out. That leaves the only explanation being the they actually did see the risen Jesus. Therefore I conclude that God exists.
Our beliefs ought to be consistent outflows of our first principles.
That's why it's so important to instill the proper first principles in our children so that they can have a solid foundation on which to build.
The first principles should not be based on primitive perceptions and interpretations fueled by superstition and magical thinking. We should know better in this day and age. Love is real and not remotely supernatural. Jesus told us God IS agape love and love casts out all fear and all the negative human emotions so God cannot have ANY of them.
There is no wrath in God, no need to punish us for our failures, and definitely no eternal Hell and damnation. If your first principles contain any of those negative and evil concepts, you are harming your children by promoting them instead of the love of God and each other.
I lived my life for some forty years as an agnostic to God, with no faith in a God I did not know ....... When I dabbled into the occult as if I did not believe in God than I did not believe in any spirits of the occult ....UNTIL the devil came into my home and haunted my house ..... So with reason if the occult has live spirits than the demons that Jesus cleansed must be real and Jesus is indeed real, so I ran to Jesus and got save to Christ Glory to God
I'm talking about "believe" in the sense of affirming the truth or reality of something, and that's the kind of belief I don't get to decide on. Belief decisions are not made by my thinking ego, but rather they are given to me by something other than my personal volition.
For example, do I accept as factual the claim that it's raining outside? My first step in establishing what my belief is will NOT be to make a decision about whether I believe it is raining. Rather, I consult with experience to find out what I believe. I hear the telltale patter of raindrops on the roof, and discover that I believe it is raining. I didn't decide to believe that. The belief was given to me by circumstance and by an automatic metal process. I can't believe things "on purpose". I can only look to see whether I believe.
If we think that God commands us to believe, that sets up a horrible mess that is familiar to many of us. We HAVE TO believe, so we shove any contrary thoughts or experiences down into a deep place where we won't see them. This, of course, sets up a gnarly psychological complex in which all that shoving-down of subversive thoughts gives them greater and greater power in a shadowy and menacing way. Which makes us shove down all the harder, which makes the shadow all the more fearsome.
The way out of the cycle is to adopt a new understanding of belief. Forget "believe that X is true" and substitute instead "believe in X". Do I believe THAT God exists? No. When I consult my factual beliefs I find that I don't have the experience needed to make such a bold claim. However, I can decide to believe IN God, which is a different thing.
To believe in God means to love God, or at least to love the concept of God. To believe in God also means that you decide to act as if God were factual - - to follow His teaching and even to pray to Him every day. "You might not be there, Lord, but I need to talk with you anyway."
Believing in God is a pure leap of faith. I can't know, I can't affirm as factual; so I decide to believe IN God. That way, there are no facts to affirm, and thus no contrary, subversive thoughts to shove down into the unconscious pit.
You could call this a kind of Christian agnosticism. Thoughts?
I once had a blog called "The Christian Agnostic." (Don't look for it - I pulled the plug a decade ago.) There is also at least one reasonably good book by that name.
I don't know how one "believes in" or "loves" a "concept." That's a bit too amorphous for me. I believe a commitment to Christianity requires more concreteness than that.
Certainly there is some leap of faith involved. Every intellectually honest Christian has to admit a lack of certainty and some modicum of "agnosticism" if we want to call it that. This is true at the moment of conversion and thereafter.
I think belief sufficient for a genuine leap of faith can come in an instant or evolve over time. Nevertheless, I think at the time of the leap there does have to be some degree of genuine conviction that God exists. I also firmly believe that the Holy Spirit assists in this. It's a mysterious process that resists logical analysis.
I think it is belief (conviction) that God exists. The concept of believing "in" something that I have no real conviction even exists is unintelligible to me.
More to the point, a conversion to Christianity requires a sincere acknowledgment of sin, sincere repentance and a sincere acknowledgment of one's need for God's forgiveness and mercy. I don't see how this could occur in the context of a belief "in" a God I have no conviction even exists.
I understand the point you're making. I used to define faith as "living as though my beliefs were true while acknowledging they may not be." I now realize this really isn't faith. Faith is more concrete than this.
You are right that it's impossible to reason one's way to a doubt-free belief in the existence of God. The Bible says as much. As I've suggested, the belief necessary for conversion and a walk of faith is nothing like doubt-free - but it is a conviction. This conviction is a mysterious process of God's call, the work of the Holy Spirit and the human response. I don't think it can be circumvented by redefining it or settling for something less.
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