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we notice in the translations of both the Catholic Latin Vulgate and also the Douay Rheims
1Ti 5:19 Against a “ Priest “ receive not an accusation
This Greek word is correctly translated as “ Elder “ in Martian Luther’s German Translation in - 1Ti 5:19
In fact this Greek word is used a total of 67 total times in the manuscripts and out of the 67 total times - the Catholic Translations correctly translate this word as “ ancient ones “ / Elders - in every single passage of the 66 other instances where the word is used
Only one single time does the Catholic Translation change the original Greek word “ ancient ones “ / Elders - and delete the original word and change this word into a “ Priest “ in one single verse, in - 1Ti 5:19
Martian Luther fixed this error and correctly translated this word as “ Elder “
And - - with these few minor changes that Martian Luther changed, Roman Catholics today continue to propagate the false claim that protestants have altered and mistranslated their bibles in order to directly change what the original manuscripts portray as - Catholic Biblical Faith.
Even with the very few minor changes, corrections and repair that Martian Luther made - for example, such as all of the Old Testament passages in the Latin Vulgate and that remove the Hebrew word “ Rock “
In these 12 passages the Latin Vulgate and also the Douay Rheims that removes the Hebrew word “ Rock “ and replaces the word with the word “ Strength “
Deu 32:15 God - The Rock of his salvation.
2Sa 22:3 The God of my Rock
2Sa 22:47 God of the Rock of my salvation.
Psa 18:2 The LORD is my Rock
Psa 18:46 God - my Rock; and let the God of my salvation
Psa 62:2 He only is my Rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.
Psa 62:6 He only is my Rock and my salvation
Psa 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the Rock of my strength,
Psa 89:26 my God, and the Rock of my salvation.
Psa 95:1 the LORD - the Rock of our salvation.
Isa 17:10 God of thy salvation - the Rock of thy strength
Martin Luther here, also made the corrections concerning these passages where God is described as the “ “ Rock of salvation “ Martian Luther, here again, correctly translated these passages making corrections and changes to the Catholic Translations.
צוּר - tsûr - tsoor = Rock
even if we take into account passages such as these that have been corrected and even if we remove the handful of old testament Apocrypha that do not exist in protestant bible translations -
this does not change the fact that the all of these catholic and protestant translations are all identical in teaching, doctrine and are in complete perfect agreement in their message concerning the plan of Salvation, the Laws and Commandments and agree concerning the deity of Christ regarding the Trinity
in full agreement - regarding morality and the finished work of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation
In other words - in the main important basics of Scripture even regarding the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Rock of our salvation. The Manuscript of the New Testament still do not regard St. Peter as the Rock. St. Peter is described as a small stone or a little smaller piece or fragment, pebble or a smaller little stone
The question I ask to Catholics
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out and hides the teaching of purgatory ?
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out and hides the teaching of marry ?
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out the teaching of papal authority ?
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out and hides the teaching of Eucharist ?
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out and hides the teaching of priestly authority
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out and hides the teaching of purgatory ?
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out and hides the teaching of Jesus ?
removing the old testament apocrypha takes out the teaching of catholic church tradition ?
roman Catholics are still unable to point to a single passage of any protestant translation and say that “ “ this protestant passage “ is changing and removing Roman Catholic teaching from the manuscripts. -
REGARDING CATHOLIC PURGATORY - Catholic Tradition
Even the very Catholic Translations of the Scripture itself, in the very way that Catholics have translated their Bibles, the New Testament makes it clear that God has done away with the Old Covenant and Old Traditions of Sacrifices and offerings.
Sacrifices and Offering and for sin atonement has been completely done away with
The very Catholic Bible itself makes it clear in the Catholic Translation that -
Heb 10:4 it isimpossible for blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
:5 Jesus came into the world, saying Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
:8 Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
:18 Now where remission of these - sins - there isno more offering for
:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
This is exactly what the Roman Catholic Bible translation itself is saying, that the Old Covenants of offerings and sacrifices for sins are completely against the New Covenant !
Soooo - How is Martian Luther removing anything from Catholic Teaching by removing - 2 Maccabees 12: 42 - 46
just because a group of Jews who existed 150 years before Jesus Christ have decided in Old Testament to perform sacrifices or prayers or pay atonement for the dead , why are we to believe that this is something that the Spirit of the Holy God has - inspired by his prophets ? ? or just because a group of Jews who existed 150 years before Jesus Christ have decided in old testament that some form of purgatory exists for the dead, why are we to believe that this is something that Jesus or the apostles taught in the new testament ?
2 Maccabees 12: 42 - 46
verse :42 addresses - the sins of those that were slain - the sins of the dead.
:43 - silver should be paid - for sacrifice - offered for the sins of the dead - concerning the resurrection.
:44 - they that were slain should rise again, it was important - to pray for the dead
:45 - they who had fallen asleep with godliness, should have great grace laid up for them.
:46 - It is holy and wholesome to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
it is equivalent to saying that a group of Jews went to the temple and sacrificed an olive tree branch for the sick and afflicted among them. it has no meaning or purpose and no base, foundation and merit in the Hebrew Law or as Word Of God given by the prophets -
it is equivalent to saying that God intends Roman Catholics to offer some goat hair and rabbit’s foot and the liver of unicorns as offerings with the blood of baby puppies and offerings of grain and crops and roots and berries to remove the sins of Catholics - when in fact, SILVER and GOLD and MONEY and COINS and PERSONAL PROPERTY - were never, ever used as offerings for sins in the Old Testament Law.
No one ever prayed for the dead under the Old Covenant.
nothing exists within scripture anywhere to explain that this was given as something God indented for anyone to perform nor was this performed by a Hebrew Priest nor the commandment of a Prophet of God in the Old Testament, concerning the sins of the dead.
why would Catholics look for guidance from a group of Jews who lived 150 years before Jesus Christ for support for purgatory - Jews who are not being led by a Prophet nor attempting to follow previous standards and Laws in any way.
According to Catholic Teaching and understanding the Jews of the Maccabee revolt are supposedly living in a time when the Old Testament Hebrews had begun to fall away from obeying God and this falling away from the LAW and COVENANT was the part of the very reason that Jesus had condemned and criticized and judged the Hebrew people.
Catholics are going back to the standards of the Old Covenant of the Old Law when there were no Priests and no Prophets of God and following traditions that their own Catholic Scriptures have demanded are no longer in effect and no longer sacrificial and offered for sin and claiming that Sin Offerings can remove sins in Purgatory for the dead by making payments of money in coins and dollars to provide sacrifice for sins .
When their own Catholic Translations completely demandand clearly declare that this is not a part of God’s plan,
Martian Luther removing the 2 Maccabees 12: 42 - 46 Apocryphal documents - this is not removing Catholic Teaching from the CATHOLIC Scriptures as Catholics have translated their own Scriptures themselves and it has nothing to do with Catholic Teaching as it is presented in their own Translations.
Catholics must move outside the text of their own translation and REMOVE and MENTALLY IGNORE AND DEFY AND DELETE MENTALLY their very own Translations - and rely upon TRADITIONS and then pretend that Martian Luther has altered the Scriptures to remove Catholicism from their Translations
When in fact, the Catholic Translations themselves in no way at all whatsoever in any way shape or form represent anything regarding Catholic Traditions or the Catholic Faith System.
When, in fact Luther changed not a single thing regarding the Translation of the Catholic Church that presents itself as Catholic Teaching that exists provided or mentioned within the context of their very own Catholic Translations,. themselves.
Even - Purgatory, did not develop over the centuries by the Catholic fathers making references to apocryphal writings of Old Testament Jews. Nothing in the Catechism not Vatican documents are mentioned for the using of 2 Maccabees to support Purgatory.
Catholic Traditions are developed completely outside of scriptures - while falsely accusing Protestants of removing Catholic Traditions and taking these Traditions out of their Protestant Translations
This is false propaganda that is spread by probably a small minority of the Catholics spreading deception that is not important enough to the majority to correct or consider as important
Wrong!
Luther added the word 'alone' to Romans 3:28
In defending his 'decision' to add this word, Luther argued that God's Word in the letter of James was 'an epistle of straw' that should be thrown out of the NT.
God's Word in the Letter of James of course explicitly condemns the idea of 'justification by faith alone' .
likewise, all Roman Catholic Translations of the Book of James agree with Martian Luther when he translated that it is faith ALONE that provides the Salvation.
Regardless of what minor changes and alterations, added or removed words or even changed words that exist between the Protestant and Catholica Translations. - as minor contradictions
the overall message and context and end - conclusion of all Translations are exactly the same. they all come to the same conclusion in their context.
what I mean is, just because, FOR EXAMPLE - the Catholic Church change the Greek word " elder " into the word " Priest " in just one single passage, but this Catholic alteration and changing of this one single word - this still does not provide a change that is supporting the Roman Catholic Priesthood in the Translation. The Catholic Translation still does not support the Catholic Faith System to include Catholic Priestly System. - - simply by adding and inserting the word Priest in one single passage alone.
the overall message and context and end - conclusion of the Catholic Translation is in opposition and in disagreement and the Catholic Translation comes to the same conclusion in its context.
the conclusion of all of the New Testament is still saying that there is no Catholic Priest System in the New Testament.
The Catholic Translation does not attempt to deny or bypass this truth - - the Catholic Translation is not altering and changing the Translation to force it to conclude or suggest that there is a Catholic Priesthood, it is just a simple case where Catholics have inserted a single word in attempt to suggest something that is not in context with the rest of the New Testament. - - in context, within the body of the narrative there is complete unity and agreement with the Protestant Translation.
Just in the way that the Roman Catholic Translations have removed the commandment to not " bow down " to images and idols, replacing or changing the word to say " do not adore Images and Idols.
The context and body of text and the conclusion within the Catholic Translation still concludes and commands that no Idols and Images are to even be made and raised for any adoration or service
Both Catholic and Protestants are complete agreement that idols and Images are forbade forbidden to exist whatsoever - prohibited.
WHAT WE SEE IS - that Catholic feel and imagine that by altering, changing, adding and deleting one single word, this can provide justification to believe in Catholicism Teaching - REGARDLESS of what the context and rest of the message says in the rest of scripture. The Scripture concludes one thing but one word is changed to contradict the narrative and supporting surrounding body of text that obviously comes to a clear conclusion that - - the changing of this one single word still does not change the narrative and conclusion explained within the full scope of the message.
Martian Luther did the same thing.... IN THE SAME WAY
Jas 2:24* Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.*
Luther translated this correctly and his Translation clearly conveys and delivers this message very clearly
but in the environment that Luther lived within
but in the situation that Luther lived within
but in the condition of the minds and hearts of the people that Luther represented
but in the very way that Catholics and Protestants derived their faith system and formulated their beliefs surrounding Martian Luther
Luther felt that by altering and changing one single word to say " FAITH ALONE, " Luther felt this would repair and remedy the error and mistake that the Catholic Church had made by the inventions of Catholic Tradition and Luther knew - - that the condition and mentality and though process of the Protestants would be accommodated to take his alterations made in his Translation
these accommodations and alterations of Luther would restore Sola Scriptura and eliminate Catholic Tradition
even when these two systems are already in complete contradiction and changing the Catholic Translation still not not change the fact that the Catholic System is not found in the very Catholic Bible Translation itself.
it is faith ALONE that provides the Salvation for the heart to receive this salvation
for the man to be JUSTIFIED in his faith - he must have works to show the faith
Neither Luther nor Catholicism has altered this clear message in their translations
here, we are seeing Protestants / Luther attempting to change a single words to remove them from their context to combat and repair things based upon traditions alone
and here, also we are seeing Catholics attempting to change a single words to remove them from their context to support and erect things based upon traditions alone
by Luther altering this one single word, this has caused Protestants to debate and converse about this one single passage for hundreds of years even until now.
context still falls second place to making word changes and alterations
. Thank you for replying, I really do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this important topic
Let’s look at the facts - please.
This Catholic Tradition that demands that the Catholic Church decided upon the correct books of the New Testament is simply untruthful and a great ignoring of reality –
Catholics demand that their Church put the Bible together and decided what books of the Bible were included in the New Testament
Furthermore demanding - that their Church alone had done this and that no other effort was completed in assembly of books of the Bible. -
The reality of the fact is such an enormous blatant deception, with the very shameful fact. that Pope Damascus commissioned Jerome to produce a Latin Vulgate that would correct and repair and fix the many, many INACCURACIES and ERRORS that already existed in a previous earlier Latin Version of the Bible.
A Bible translated into Latin 350years before Jerome’s Latin Translation,. -
This earlier translation was called the “ Vetus Italia “ OLD LATIN - Bible Translation - produced around 150 Ad - nearly 350 years before Jerome’s Latin Vulgate was produced.
Furthermore
This website explains in complete details the COMPLETE 27 books of the New Testament that were all included in the Vetus Italia / OLD LATIN BIBLE - produced as early as 150 Ad.
All 72 books of the New Testament were already decided, already translated and today we have the manuscripts that show that all 72 books were already being circulated and used as scriptures by the Christians in the churches of the Waldenses, Gauls, Celts, Albegenses and other fundamental groups throughout Europe.
This Old Latin previous was used and beloved by orthodox Christians and was in common use by the common people.
The COMPLETE New Testament was already decided, complete and possessed complete in some thirty-eight surviving manuscripts, - All 72 books of the New Testament were already decided, translated and were already being circulated
Although today its Old-Testament text has survived only in parts - the Manuscripts for the Old Testament have not been preserved throughout time - but the evidence shows that All 72 books of the New Testament were completed and translated into OLD LATIN - 350 years before Jerome’ Latin Vulgate was produced.
The claim made by Catholics is that Jerome corrected and repaired the many errors from the Old Latin version of the Bible
This Vatican Website demands that Jerome corrected the Old Latin version of the Old Testament https://www.vatican.va/content/bened...paraclitus.pdf
furthermore here are more websites that explain how the Vatican considered the Original Latin - Vetus Italia Bible produced around 150 Ad had been corrupted, filled with ERRORS / MISTASKES and was an untrustworthy translation .
the errors that had crept into the text should be corrected
Corrections made in the Vulgate according to Original Texts
1522 - Book Author - - Osiander (1527 - reprinted by Catholic Rudelius)
1542-1557 - Book Author - - Isidor Clarius, - O.S.B.
Pope Damascus did not commission Jerome to choose what books should be in the Bible - the 27 books of the New Testament were already decided, translated and circulated to the Christian Communities 350 years before Jerome produced his Vulgate
Here - We see the Catholic Church says that “ Jerome “ - he corrected{fixed /repaired} the Latin version of the Old Testament by using the Greek;
he translated afresh nearly all the books of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin;
“ he corrected the Latin version of the Old Testament by the Greek; he translated afresh nearly all the books of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin; “
But …. why would Jerome need to correct{fix andrepair} any previous Latin bible translation and why was the Latin Bible CORRUPTEDand inconsistent? This original Latin Bible and THE VERY FIRST - the very FIRST Latin bible - this previous translation had previously been produced and translated before Jerome’s Latin Vulgate
This was the “ Vetus Italia Translation “ produced sometime between 150 - to 250 AD - - this is the previous Latin Bible Translation that existed before Jerome.
This means EITHER the Roman Catholic Church / VATICAN didnot translate any Latin Version of The Bible Translated into Latin for the first 400 years after Christ
405 - Jerome Completed his Latin Vulgate - because the previous Latin was corrupted.
Or - This means that the previous { PRE JEROME } Latin Bible - the first Latin Bible, IN THE VATICAN - had been so badly damaged and misplaced and so mistreated and abandoned / un – kept and had not been maintained,
and - no new copies were made in the Vatican for 400 years
and - that nothing was preserved
- nothing had been transmitted and handed out from the Vatican, for 400 years
Or - This means that the previous { PRE JEROME } Latin Bible - the first Latin Bible, WAS NEVER IN THE VATICAN
That Jerome had to completely, entirely totally abandon and reject the previous Latin
version { IN THE VATICAN } All Latin Bible Copies in the Vaticanhad been completely abandoned, trashed and totally discarded and disintegrated - and were filled with errors, mistakes and corruption and mistranslation -
or they just somehow suddenly vanished into thin air or they had decayed and had become rotten and unreadable - Jerome’s only option was to go back to the original Hebrew, from 400 years ago and spend years and years trying learn, study and an enormous amount of time working to translate from the Hebrew.
Jerome even had help from a Hebrew Rabbi to assist him figuring out how to translate ancient Hebrew manuscripts - the Vatican elaborately and in great detail explains that Jerome spent so much time and work in studying the Hebrew manuscripts.
As if - absolutely none of this work had ever been previously done by the Roman Catholic Church. !
And Jerome is here - 300 to 400 years later with next to nothing in Greek - and entire previous Latin Translation is so corrupted and filled with error
and here Jerome - he is so overwhelmed and burdened and working at such lengths and the enormous task of translating the Old Testament from the Hebrew.
In other words, because there was no accurate and truthful consistent Latin Bible to translate from - he had to use the only available manuscripts from HEBREW and a small options in Greek in correcting the previous Latin version of the Old Testament, by using the Hebrew manuscripts and the very, very small amount of available codex of Greek.
JEROME EXPLAINS IN DETIAL THE ENORMOUS AMMOUNT OF EFFORT AND FLUSTERATION AND WORK AND WORK AND THE OBSTACLES AND DELIMA AND PROBLEMS HE SPENT 15 LONG YEARS TRYING TO TRANSLATE A BOOK WITH NOTHING BUT CONTINUAL EFFORTS IN TRANSLATING DIRECTLY FROM THE hEBREW AND GREEK.
AS IF NONE OF THIS WORK HAD BEEN DONE BEFORE HIM FOR THE LAST 500 years
Why / How - was the previous Latin Translation corrupted in the Vatican ?
OR - was there absolutely no accurate and truthful Latin translation in the Vatican for 400 years ?
The question is why did the previous Latin Translation become corrupted in the Vatican ?
Or did the Catholic Church not produce and maintain the previous Latin Bible and did not have an Old testament Translation - for 400 years after Christ ?
Does add to the evidence demonstrating that the Catholic Church did not exist until 300 - 400 years after Christ.
or the Catholic Church did not believe it was important to have a correctly translated Old Testament for a modern language - until 400 years after Christ ?
and the fact is, the Catholic Church did not produce a New Testament translation into a modern language - until nearly 2000 years after Christ ? - when the Douay Rheims English Bible was made in 1582
It just makes it difficult and seemingly impossible for many Christians to understand and put assurance in the things that Roman Catholics claim as truth and such a gap in reality is centered around the claims of the Church of Rome, that having an honest conversation with someone who holds to the Roman Catholic faith is like a conversation in deceptive claims with everything built upon claims that have no evidence. - the evidence shows the contrary
Just think of it, the Catholic Church did not produce a translation of the Old Testament until 400 years after Christ
also, did not produce a New Testament translation into a modern language - until nearly 2000 years after Christ.
Does this demonstrate the deliberate intentional plan to lead the populations to place all their trust upon Catholic tradition and imagination and nothing was given to the public for them to read, understand and verify in scripture, as if the doctrines, theologies and faith of Rome was created, developed and accepted by millions of Catholics for nearly 2000 years before they even had a New Testament Bible translated into their language.
This just seems very intentional and really dishonest to Non - Catholics.
How - - did the Bible Translation become corrupted in the Vatican - to the point that the Vatican had to spend 15 years with Jerome under such great stress and working elaborately to repair and fix the errors and mistakes and perversions in the existing Latin Translation ?
Why - - did the Vatican allow the Latin Bible previously translated some 350 years before to be corrupted beyond recognition and beyond repair.
Why - - did the Vatican allow the Bible to become so completely corrupted and unkempt and DEGRADED while in the Vatican as if the Vatican did not even have interest or Even Possession of the Vetus Italia that was produced around 150 Ad
The Catholic Church did not even produce any Translation of the Bible until nearly 500 years after Christ and then waited until nearly 2000 years after Christ just to produce a Bible into another language - outside of Latin.
The evidence shows that the Catholic Church either allowed the previous Version of the complete Bible to become so corrupted and dilapidated and run – down into such perversity and error and did nothing to preserve the previous Latin Bible already produced and completed - “ ALL COMPLETED 27 “ books of the New Testament 350 years previous to deciding to make a correction and complete revision.
Or the Catholic Church did not exist 350 years before Jerome
and
The Vetus Italia was produced in Northern Africa and was not produced by the Catholic Church - nor did Roman Catholics use this Bible, it was the Waldenses, Gauls, Celts, Albegenses and other fundamental groups throughout Europe who rejected the Latin Vulgate for many centuries after the Latin Vulgate was produced.
This is the reason we know the Old Latin / Vetus Italia existed in complete “ ALL COMPLETED 27 “ books of the New Testament because these NON - CATHOLIC Christians used this Older Bible Translation for centuries after the Vulgate
They rejected the Vulgate and continued to use the Vetus Italia into
1000 years after Christ while the Vatican forced its Vulgate Translation into law through violence.
the Problem for the Vatican is that the Vetus Italia Bible translation was translated in an older language that was an ancient tradition transmission dedicated / devoted and coded to the intent and message of the Original manuscripts and not filled with alterations of Traditions.
and that Jerome was spending 15 years attempting to insert the scribblings, doodles scratchings and scrawlings and the etchings and wiggle works and the man made delusions of the Catholic Church Fathers
this is what took him 15 years to weave, insert and interject into his translation.
.
In 382 AD Pope Damascus requested Jerome to undertake a complete revision of the old Latin Bible - the Vetus Italia
The Vetus Italia - had been translated 350 years earlier by Non – Catholic Christians around Northern Africa,
Jerome completed his work in 405 AD with the completion of the Old Testament and only the 4 gospels of the New Testament.
Jerome’s Latin Vulgate was not immediately copied and circulated for others to read and make copies, in fact Jerome continued to revise, rework and modify and edit his Latin Vulgate for years thereafter. - in fact, the Latin Vulgate was not completed until the 6 th Century
In 1546, 1000 years later, the Council of Trent decreed that the Vulgate was the exclusive Latin authority for the Bible.
The Vatican waited for 1000 years just to make a public statement in Vatican
official Council, the Vatican then decreed that the Latin Vulgate was officially regarded as truth by the Vatican,
informing the public this was the official Roman Catholic Bible in a Vatican decree.
because by 1546 there were numerous people known and found attempting to translate the Bible in their own language - the only option for the Vatican was to make a public statement for Catholics should they be exposed to a translation of the Scriptures that did not conform to the Catholic Vulgate Translation.,
Much of the Jewish Oral Torah is present throughout scripture:
- Where's the instruction for 70 Sanhedrin members? Jesus clearly saw them as legitimate.
- Acts 1 actually mirrors the Early Jewish Second Temple government.
- Yeshua heals on the Sabbat- this is actually a Rabbinic principle to break Sabbat to save a life.
- John 10 has Yeshua celebrate Hanukkah. Hanukkah is a Rabbinic holiday which celebrates the Jewish people reclaiming the Temple of HaShem from Greek pagans. Hanukkah does not exist in any of the scriptures- only Apocrypha and Oral Torah.
- Many instructions are actually required in the "old testament" for proper functioning. Take confusing verses like the death penalty. In Jewish context, the supposedly guilty person and two witnesses were required in order to carry out the execution.
- Scripture refers to a prophet that was sawn in half. Who was this prophet? We only know through the Talmud that the prophet sawed in half was Isaiah.
- Yeshua actually wears Jewish tzitzit. Where are instructions to make those in scripture?
- Yeshua orders his followers to listen to the Pharisees as "they say," but not "as they do." Notice Yeshua orders his followers to listen to the Pharisees, not the Saducees, Essenes, or Samaritan Jews' laws. All of these groups (minus the Saducees) followed the Oral Torah.
- Apostle Paul states he is a Pharisee when accused in the courtroom. If Yeshua truly condemned that school of thought, why would Paul be allowed to identify as a Pharisee? Clearly, lying and denying faith in G-d is not allowed in Torah.
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