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"Tempted" would have been a much better word choice than "caused", thank you.
In Job, Satan is sent by God to do the dirty work. He is not really the personification of evil, as he is an agent of God in the story. Someone like rosends (CD poster, a rabbi who posts in our Judaism forum) would be able to tell us more.
Revelation and the gospel view of Satan would have no meaning in Judaism, though, and most Jews are likely not familiar with either reference. They demonstrate the difference between Satan in Judaism and in Christianity.
The good thing about this discussion is that it has caused me to spend some time reading and studying some from the book of Job.
How Judaism views Satan, I can’t honestly say. I see Satan as a spirit being, referred to as Satan in the OT, which means adversary. Imho, Satan is not a name, but a title. Other than the book of Job, this title only appears in two other places in the Old Testament (1 Chronicles 21:1; Zechariah 3:1). My understanding of the accuser (Satan) comes primarily from the New Testament, not the Old Testament. So I get why Satan may be viewed differently in Judaism.
Imho, Satan was not an “agent” of God. That suggests that God was the ultimate cause of all the terrible things that came upon Job. Here is what I know. Satan along with the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord (1:1). We know from the very first verse of the book that Job was an upright and blameless man who feared God and shunned evil.
Notice the flow of the conversation. The first thing God asks Satan is “Where have you come from?
”From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.”
Do we know for sure what Satan meant? Why was he roaming the earth? Tempting people? Perhaps, but we can’t say for sure.
Then God asks “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil.”
It is at this point that I ask, did God tell Satan to do all these terrible things to Job? Not that I can see.
I don’t believe God was challenging Satan here. I think it was the other way around. Satan said to God, “ 10Have You not placed a hedge on every side around him and his household and all that he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out Your hand and strike all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face.” Satan was the one who was doing the challenging, not the Lord.
All God did was give Satan permission to destroy everything Job had, but he was not allowed to harm a hair on his head. He never asked Satan to do these things. Therefore, imho, Satan wasn’t working on God’s behalf. God was simply granting him permission to destroy Job’s family and possessions.
Is Satan the personification of evil? If you consider the definition of personification, I believe it is fair to say Satan is evil personified.
personification
pər-sŏn″ə-fĭ-kā′shən
noun
The act of personifying.
A person or thing typifying a certain quality or idea; an embodiment or exemplification.
A figure of speech in which inanimate objects or abstractions are endowed with human qualities or are represented as possessing human form, as in Hunger sat shivering on the road or Flowers danced about the lawn.
PS. Sorry for the long post, but I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for always being respectful!!!
I think he just did that (explained simply what the beatific vision is).
Obviously he didn’t or I wouldn’t be asking. I am not Catholic, therefore I do not understand. Perhaps you’d like to try explaining in your own words and not a cut and paste from a Catholic website.
The good thing about this discussion is that it has caused me to spend some time reading and studying some from the book of Job.
How Judaism views Satan, I can’t honestly say. I see Satan as a spirit being, referred to as Satan in the OT, which means adversary. Imho, Satan is not a name, but a title. Other than the book of Job, this title only appears in two other places in the Old Testament (1 Chronicles 21:1; Zechariah 3:1). My understanding of the accuser (Satan) comes primarily from the New Testament, not the Old Testament. So I get why Satan may be viewed differently in Judaism.
Imho, Satan was not an “agent” of God. That suggests that God was the ultimate cause of all the terrible things that came upon Job. Here is what I know. Satan along with the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord (1:1). We know from the very first verse of the book that Job was an upright and blameless man who feared God and shunned evil.
Notice the flow of the conversation. The first thing God asks Satan is “Where have you come from?
”From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.”
Do we know for sure what Satan meant? Why was he roaming the earth? Tempting people? Perhaps, but we can’t say for sure.
Then God asks “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil.”
It is at this point that I ask, did God tell Satan to do all these terrible things to Job? Not that I can see.
I don’t believe God was challenging Satan here. I think it was the other way around. Satan said to God, “ 10Have You not placed a hedge on every side around him and his household and all that he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out Your hand and strike all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face.” Satan was the one who was doing the challenging, not the Lord.
All God did was give Satan permission to destroy everything Job had, but he was not allowed to harm a hair on his head. He never asked Satan to do these things. Therefore, imho, Satan wasn’t working on God’s behalf. God was simply granting him permission to destroy Job’s family and possessions.
Is Satan the personification of evil? If you consider the definition of personification, I believe it is fair to say Satan is evil personified.
personification
pər-sŏn″ə-fĭ-kā′shən
noun
The act of personifying.
A person or thing typifying a certain quality or idea; an embodiment or exemplification.
A figure of speech in which inanimate objects or abstractions are endowed with human qualities or are represented as possessing human form, as in Hunger sat shivering on the road or Flowers danced about the lawn.
PS. Sorry for the long post, but I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for always being respectful!!!
Well, some of what you ask about, such as why was Satan roaming the earth, I see as plot devices to move the story forward. Satan sees Job, tells God I bet if we made him miserable, this good and faithful man will curse, God says, "you're on!" and gives Satan the go-ahead to play his terrible game. But God is apparently just dandy with allowing Job's original family to be wiped out.
Obviously, I do not believe this to be something that actually happened, so arguing over whether a character in a story supports a later perception of Satan as the personification of evil in Christianity doesn't really matter. Both Satan and God come across as pretty rotten characters in the story of Job! Satan does the killing and destroying but God's sitting there watching the whole thing with a smirk because he knows he is going to win.
It doesn't really matter, because the whole point of the story is that bad stuff happens to even those most faithful to God, and there's no real rhyme or reason to it that we can determine, 'tho it's easy to imagine it all being a game, as the unknown author of Job brilliantly demonstrates.
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" is the only real answer we will ever get.
Well, some of what you ask about, such as why was Satan roaming the earth, I see as plot devices to move the story forward. Satan sees Job, tells God I bet if we made him miserable, this good and faithful man will curse, God says, "you're on!" and gives Satan the go-ahead to play his terrible game. But God is apparently just dandy with allowing Job's original family to be wiped out.
The Scriptures don’t tell us that “God was just dandy with allowing Job’s family to be wiped out.” That would be an assumption on your part.
Quote:
Obviously, I do not believe this to be something that actually happened, so arguing over whether a character in a story supports a later perception of Satan as the personification of evil in Christianity doesn't really matter. Both Satan and God come across as pretty rotten characters in the story of Job! Satan does the killing and destroying but God's sitting there watching the whole thing with a smirk because he knows he is going to win.
I did not know you didn’t believe this actually happened, and I’m not sure how you know God was sitting there with a smirk. Again, more assumptions. I’m guessing that’s because you don’t believe what God’s word says. That allows you to add to the story. I get that. I just don’t agree with it.
Quote:
It doesn't really matter, because the whole point of the story is that bad stuff happens to even those most faithful to God, and there's no real rhyme or reason to it that we can determine, 'tho it's easy to imagine it all being a game, as the unknown author of Job brilliantly demonstrates.
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" is the only real answer we will ever get.
You’re right about one thing. God does allow bad things to happen to good people, and there is rhyme and reason for it. It’s called free will. Every creature has it. Satan has it, and God allowed him to use it.
I haven’t studied Job enough to make the claim that it’s a game, but you have inspired me to dig into the book and learn more. I thank you for that, and for the discussion. I always enjoy chatting with you. You’re a very smart lady, one who challenges my thinking!
God bless you, my friend, and Happy New Year to you!
The Scriptures don’t tell us that “God was just dandy with allowing Job’s family to be wiped out.” That would be an assumption on your part.
I did not know you didn’t believe this actually happened, and I’m not sure how you know God was sitting there with a smirk. Again, more assumptions. I’m guessing that’s because you don’t believe what God’s word says. That allows you to add to the story. I get that. I just don’t agree with it.
You’re right about one thing. God does allow bad things to happen to good people, and there is rhyme and reason for it. It’s called free will. Every creature has it. Satan has it, and God allowed him to use it.
I haven’t studied Job enough to make the claim that it’s a game, but you have inspired me to dig into the book and learn more. I thank you for that, and for the discussion. I always enjoy chatting with you. You’re a very smart lady, one who challenges my thinking!
God bless you, my friend, and Happy New Year to you!
Yes the sarcastic remarks are my own editorializing, of course! Job is an interesting, albeit disturbing, story, which is probably why it has been analyzed and discussed in so many ways.
Obviously he didn’t or I wouldn’t be asking. I am not Catholic, therefore I do not understand. Perhaps you’d like to try explaining in your own words and not a cut and paste from a Catholic website.
Was his answer a cut and paste from a Catholic website? Otherwise, he did exactly what you asked for but you still didn't understand it apparently. Oh well.
My understanding of the beatific vision is when a Christian dies and faces God at the moment of death. Pretty easy to understand. I didn't cut and paste that from any website, by the way, though the words are so simple that they might show up on some website somewhere, who knows.
Was his answer a cut and paste from a Catholic website? Otherwise, he did exactly what you asked for but you still didn't understand it apparently. Oh well.
My understanding of the beatific vision is when a Christian dies and faces God at the moment of death. Pretty easy to understand. I didn't cut and paste that from any website, by the way, though the words are so simple that they might show up on some website somewhere, who knows.
Thank you for your explanation.
The first time Mike mentioned “beatific vision” was in his post #632. He never explained what he meant by that, but he did call it grace, a gift from God that follows baptism.
From what I’m reading from the CCC, “beatific vision” is not what you think it is. Maybe you should discuss it with your priest.
From the CCC:
1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":
“How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.” 604
Where might I find any of this in God’s word? If it is from God’s word, then why not simply quote it?
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-02-2023 at 07:34 AM..
The first time Mike mentioned “beatific vision” was in his post #632. He never explained what he meant by that, but he did call it grace, a gift from God that follows baptism.
From what I’m reading from the CCC, “beatific vision” is not what you think it is. Maybe you should discuss it with your priest.
From the CCC:
1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":
“How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.” 604
Where might I find any of this in God’s word? If it is from God’s word, then why not simply quote it?
I was simply trying to be extremely short in my explanation but sorry, I don't see any contradiction between what I said and what is in the CCC.
The beatific vision is being in heaven in the presence of God and in perfect Communion with Him, freed from all sin and concupiscence.
Is this cut and paste from a Catholic website? That was my question. One doesn't have to be Catholic to understand this very short and simple explanation.
In post #686 I said this:
Quote:
My understanding of the beatific vision is when a Christian dies and faces God at the moment of death.
You went on, in post #687, to cut and paste something from a Catholic website, which said in part (excuse me but I am not going to cut and paste the entire thing):
Quote:
The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision"
Of course it wasnt created out of thin air, it is in fact, "Babylonian," and of course, " Egyptian and Greek."
Christian's Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, and Roman worship system IS CERTAINLY NOT THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S APPOINTED DAYS.
OMG, Thats hilarious, so lets understand each other.
Your claim is that God's Sabbaths and 7 feasts of Messiah always pointed to the holy days and feasts of PAGAN BABYLONIAN AND EGYPTIAN GODS,,,?
YEA, Good luck with spreading Baal everywhere you go
Mind you, I don't think you are going to some hell where worms dont die, I dont imagine myself any better than you.
Having said that, again, good luck in witnessing your Babylonian Messiah, you are a true witness.
A TRUE WITNESS.
Praise be to Baal, and to Tammuz, his first begotten son of resurrection.
LEARN what YOU worship, I mean, really.
For sure....where you at friend? Are you ok?
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