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Did you forget about Acts 2:38? The gift of the Holy Spirit is given at baptism.
Baptism and confirmation can be, and often are, administered at the same time.
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
There is no such thing as “the gift of confirmation” in Scripture. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given at baptism.
Any graces that God gives are gifts. If God confirms us in the Faith, then He has bestowed a gift upon us.
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
I’m sorry, but I don’t know what that is. I’m going to assume this is another tradition of the Catholic Church.
Yes, the belief in the existence of heaven is a Tradition of the Catholic Church. The beatific vision is the experience of being in the presence of God in heaven. It is the vision of God, experiencing Him with our own senses.
We do not experience this grace at our baptism, or even within our mortal lives. So, it is a grace that Jesus has not yet completed at our baptism.
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Originally Posted by MissKate12
Maybe you should tell me what you believe grace is. I doubt we’d see it differently.
In the most general sense, a grace is simply any supernatural gift from God that contributes to or aids in our salvation.
I don’t question whether you believe what you believe. I know you do, and I know you are sincere as most people here are. However, I think your view of God’s word is wrong. It puts you in a position of picking and choosing what you will or won’t abide by. It allows you to add or take away as you see fit. As for me, I believe the Bible to be God breathed. Therefore, I abide by it to the best of my ability. In the end God will judge. I leave it in His hands.
Oh, I know you think that way. I wasn't trying to dissuade you, although your simplistic, but common, view of my POV is somewhat amusing.
I was actually talking about EscAlaMike. You were criticizing him for believing in what his church says in lieu of what God says (which, according to YOUR faith is the Bible alone) while HE just as strongly believes that what his church says is directly from God. I was just pointing that out from the sidelines, since I'm with neither of ya.
Interesting post! I’m wondering what criteria do the Jews believe Jesus didn’t meet? The only thing I can think of is that first century Jews were looking for a conquering Messiah, one that would lead them in military battle out of Roman subjection. I don’t know what the criteria of today’s Jews would be.
If you are seriously wondering, the answers are easy enough to learn:
Again, I am not trying to convert you to another way of thinking, but I do believe it's important for us to know the perspectives of other religions, particularly of the one that was co-opted and revised to form Christianity. Just saying "oh, they wanted a military leader" or "oh, they just REFUSED to accept Jesus" is mindless and disrespectful.
I once saw a saying in a church that said, "Christ came into the world to take away our sins, not our God-given ability to reason." I think there should be no fear of learning and of knowledge outside of the Christian scriptures. If your faith is strong enough, why fear learning?
I remember being surprised when I first learned that The Garden of Eden story in Judaism is not at all the same thing we were taught in Sunday School and church. After all, wasn't that a Jewish story to begin with? Well, it is, but the meaning of it was changed to fit the Christian concept of redemption.
There is no "Satan" in the Jewish serpent--it's just a talking snake. Satan, after all, is not a personification of evil in Judaism to begin with. Most of all, there is no idea of original sin. That came later, when Christianity backtracked that into the story, making Adam's disobedience into a stain on the human race. It didn't make me run out and convert to Judaism--I don't feel drawn to keeping Torah at all. But it made me learn something new and to understand another perspective.
Again, I am not trying to convert you to another way of thinking, but I do believe it's important for us to know the perspectives of other religions, particularly of the one that was co-opted and revised to form Christianity. Just saying "oh, they wanted a military leader" or "oh, they just REFUSED to accept Jesus" is mindless and disrespectful.
I once saw a saying in a church that said, "Christ came into the world to take away our sins, not our God-given ability to reason." I think there should be no fear of learning and of knowledge outside of the Christian scriptures. If your faith is strong enough, why fear learning?
I remember being surprised when I first learned that The Garden of Eden story in Judaism is not at all the same thing we were taught in Sunday School and church. After all, wasn't that a Jewish story to begin with? Well, it is, but the meaning of it was changed to fit the Christian concept of redemption.
There is no "Satan" in the Jewish serpent--it's just a talking snake. Satan, after all, is not a personification of evil in Judaism to begin with. Most of all, there is no idea of original sin. That came later, when Christianity backtracked that into the story, making Adam's disobedience into a stain on the human race. It didn't make me run out and convert to Judaism--I don't feel drawn to keeping Torah at all. But it made me learn something new and to understand another perspective.
Baptism and confirmation can be, and often are, administered at the same time.
Perhaps in your church, but the “sacrament” of confirmation is not found in God’s word. You said it yourself. There is no Scripture that says such.
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Any graces that God gives are gifts. If God confirms us in the Faith, then He has bestowed a gift upon us.
I agree with you that any and all grace given to us by God are gifts. However, confirmation in the Catholic sense isn’t one of them.
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Yes, the belief in the existence of heaven is a Tradition of the Catholic Church. The beatific vision is the experience of being in the presence of God in heaven. It is the vision of God, experiencing Him with our own senses.
Belief in the existence of heaven is enjoyed by most who call themselves Christian.
Visions ended with the completion of the New Covenant along with the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.
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We do not experience this grace at our baptism, or even within our mortal lives. So, it is a grace that Jesus has not yet completed at our baptism.
The grace we experience at baptism is exactly what Jesus promised: forgiveness of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and entrance into the Kingdom of our Lord (Acts 2:38, 2:41, 2:47).
We know that Jesus will continue to forgive our sins if we walk in the light and confess our sins (1 John 1:7, 1:9).
God adds many gifts to His people on a daily basis (justification, sanctification, etc.). No rituals needed!
We continue to receive God’s grace (including the unbeliever) throughout our lives. Even the very air we breathe comes to us via God’s grace. But the Catholic Church makes a claim about confirmation that simply has no Biblical support. And you know it! The CC has taken cases of the laying on of hands from Scripture and turned it into a ritual, claiming Jesus instituted it. Jesus instituted baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Period. The other five so-called sacraments of the Catholic Church are purely the traditions of men. You know that as well.
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In the most general sense, a grace is simply any supernatural gift from God that contributes to or aids in our salvation.
Grace is unmerited favor from God to us. It comes in many forms, even to those who outright reject Him, which is very sad. I think we can agree on this point.
Last edited by MissKate12; 12-30-2022 at 06:33 AM..
Oh, I know you think that way. I wasn't trying to dissuade you, although your simplistic, but common, view of my POV is somewhat amusing.
I was actually talking about EscAlaMike. You were criticizing him for believing in what his church says in lieu of what God says (which, according to YOUR faith is the Bible alone) while HE just as strongly believes that what his church says is directly from God. I was just pointing that out from the sidelines, since I'm with neither of ya.
Thank you. I appreciate you saying so. I do get what you are saying.
Thanks MQ. I don’t generally do links, but I made an exception to the one you posted. It’s a very good article, one that I would use if the Lord would ever provide me with an opportunity to have a face to face discussion with a person of Jewish faith.
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Again, I am not trying to convert you to another way of thinking, but I do believe it's important for us to know the perspectives of other religions, particularly of the one that was co-opted and revised to form Christianity. Just saying "oh, they wanted a military leader" or "oh, they just REFUSED to accept Jesus" is mindless and disrespectful.
To be honest, I’ve never taken a deep look into why Jews don’t accept Jesus as Messiah. I only know what I’ve read in the Scriptures. They were looking for a military leader. That is fact. However, I will admit my ignorance to whatever their other reasons were. That is why I asked Mensaguy to elaborate on his post. I wasn’t being disrespectful or mindless. Just ignorant. The link you posted filled in the gaps for me, and for that I say thank you!
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I once saw a saying in a church that said, "Christ came into the world to take away our sins, not our God-given ability to reason." I think there should be no fear of learning and of knowledge outside of the Christian scriptures. If your faith is strong enough, why fear learning?
Agree! That is why I’ve spent many hours studying the faiths of others. I’ve spent more time trying to prove myself wrong than others. And there have been times when I succeeded. That’s the truth!
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I remember being surprised when I first learned that The Garden of Eden story in Judaism is not at all the same thing we were taught in Sunday School and church. After all, wasn't that a Jewish story to begin with? Well, it is, but the meaning of it was changed to fit the Christian concept of redemption.
I am not familiar. I only know what I read in God’s word.
Quote:
There is no "Satan" in the Jewish serpent--it's just a talking snake. Satan, after all, is not a personification of evil in Judaism to begin with. Most of all, there is no idea of original sin. That came later, when Christianity backtracked that into the story, making Adam's disobedience into a stain on the human race. It didn't make me run out and convert to Judaism--I don't feel drawn to keeping Torah at all. But it made me learn something new and to understand another perspective.
In the Hebrew manuscripts, God’s adversary is named “has.sa.tan.” (Job 1:6). It was to him God gave the power to torment Job. He is very clearly a personified being who has a conversation with YHWH.
Though the serpent is not named, he is personified. He was cunning, and he conversed with Eve.
I don’t believe in the doctrine of original sin either. Many do believe it, but I’m not one of them.
In Judaism, Moschiach is a regular human being, a human person that is born and lives and then dies. It is said in Judaism that every generation there is a human being who has the potential and possibility of being Moschiach, if humanity is at a stage and level for that person to step into that role. There have been great leaders who have been considered candidates, however all conditions have not been met so they did not. Easiest condition to recognize is world peace. We are not there yet.
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