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It's not outrageous. It's simply the truth. If you want to know more. look it up. When I checked yesterday looking for something like "Spanish force Central and South Americans to convert to Catholicism," there were over a million results, some on the first page of results were scholarly journals and well regarded universities. Like I said, if you want to know, go look it up.
All of your hemming and hawing will not deflect from the fact that nobody in this thread has provided evidence of a single forced conversion.
You act like this is not something I have studied myself. How do you think I've reached the conclusions I have except through my own study?
I wonder how much you or anyone else has actually studied the issue instead of simply regurgitating the standard party line which is intellectually nothing more than "ooh bad Catholics, conquistadors mean, boo hoo".
All of your hemming and hawing will not deflect from the fact that nobody in this thread has provided evidence of a single forced conversion.
You act like this is not something I have studied myself. How do you think I've reached the conclusions I have except through my own study?
I wonder how much you or anyone else has actually studied the issue instead of simply regurgitating the standard party line which is intellectually nothing more than "ooh bad Catholics, conquistadors mean, boo hoo".
Nobody is going to do your work for you. Look it up.
Why didn't the Spanish just leave them alone to live as they were? They were a more advanced civilization than the Spanish in a number of ways. The Spanish ruined a great empire.
Her husband wouldn't have qualified for either role.
BTW, Mexico is still unhappy with the brutality they suffered. They asked the Catholic Church to apologize and to return their artifacts.
Well, at least forced into pretending to believe, as in the Inquisition, to save one's own life. The story of the Conversos, or Crypto-Jews, of the American southwest is interesting.
Similarly, on the old AOL message boards, I had some conversations with a group of Jewish women on a discussion board like this one.
One woman had a Catholic babysitter who watched children in her home.
One Friday evening, the Jewish woman, rushing to pick up her kid because it was Shabbat, walked in to find the Catholic babysitter bent down lighting candles in the kitchen cabinet under the sink. She asked her what she was doing.
The woman said it was a tradition handed down by her mother and grandmother. They lit candles underneath the kitchen sink and said a prayer on Friday night.
The Jewish woman was stunned, and said, "You have a forced conversion somewhere in your history." The Catholic woman had no knowledge of this, and in fact her prayers were Catholic. But after the Jewish woman urged her to delve into her background a bit, it turned out that indeed the mother's family had once been Jewish but had converted at some point for self-preservation. The tradition of lighting Shabbat candles was passed on down, but the meaning of why they lit candles before sunset on Friday had been lost.
The woman remained Catholic, but her daughter reverted back to Orthodox Judaism and reclaimed her heritage.
Hmm... I don't think enough of the story if known to conclude that the conversion was 'forced'. I mean, I can certainly understand that a number of Jews throughout history may have converted to other religions (and not just to Catholicism) in order to escape being persecuted as Jews.
Lol Catholicism isn't native to Mexico. Technically not native to Spain, but at least it was in Spain long before Mexico. It was FORCED upon the natives of Mexico.
Pincho-toot - perhaps you can show us WHERE in the Nican Mopohua they say they were forced to believe?
Hmm... I don't think enough of the story if known to conclude that the conversion was 'forced'.
Of course not. Nobody could know the circumstances, since everyone was now dead. But the fact that one of the most basic of Jewish rituals, the woman of the house lighting lighting candles to usher in the Sabbath, was being conducted in a hidden manner--under a sink instead of on the dinner table as it would normally be--is a pretty good clue.
In the Philippa Gregory historical novel, The Constant Princess, about Catherine of Aragon, one of the fictional characters is the daughter of a bookseller in London who escaped from Spain after her mother was burned at the stake for heresy. She lights the Friday night candle and puts a pitcher over it so it can't be seen by anyone passing the house. It's fiction, yes, but the truth of it lies in the fact that they had to hide their Jewishness to survive in a Catholic world at that time.
Just FYI, after the Reformation, the opposite happened in Amsterdam. The Netherlands was so anti-Catholic for a time that while Jews were welcomed in that country, Catholicism was illegal. There is a museum called Our Lord in the Attic, which was a hidden Catholic church on the top floor of a house from the time. Devout people will find a way to practice their faith, be they practitioners of Voudou in Louisiana, Jews in Spain, or Catholics in Amsterdam!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
I mean, I can certainly understand that a number of Jews throughout history may have converted to other religions (and not just to Catholicism) in order to escape being persecuted as Jews.
But were Catholics doing the persecuting?
Um, yeah, the Inquisition was unquestionably Catholic. What other religion do you imagine might have been persecuting Jews on the Iberian peninsula and its countries' New World colonies at that time on such a scale?
Quote:
The Inquisition was a powerful office set up within the Catholic Church to root out and punish heresy throughout Europe and the Americas. Beginning in the 12th century and continuing for hundreds of years, the Inquisition is infamous for the severity of its tortures and its persecution of Jews and Muslims. Its worst manifestation was in Spain, where the Spanish Inquisition was a dominant force for more than 200 years, resulting in some 32,000 executions.
Kindly spare me the ridiculous defense that this the History website is not a valid site, blah blah blah. I chose it as an example because it is laid out so clearly. As mensaguy has already pointed out, you will find hundreds of websites, as well as library books, if you doubt the Internet, about this period in history.
I lived in the suburbs of Baltimore for the better part of 50 years.
There is understandably a large Catholic contingent.
If traveling to southern Maryland,
you can visit some of the original churches. Many resemble small methodist churches. Very simple and sparse. The cathedrals came later after parishioners became successful and provided funds to expand.
One can also learn about the terrible persecution many Catholics were under at the time. In some cases it was quite severe.
A little study of Lord Baltimore would be enlightening to the curious:
"George Calvert was also called Lord Baltimore. He was a Roman Catholic. George Calvert wanted to start a colony because of religious problems in England. Catholics could not openly observe their religion"
I suppose technically you could be correct, since the conversos did not actually convert but only pretended to in order to survive.
Officially, the church's position is that people must convert willingly, not by force or under duress, but basic history, particularly as regards the Iberian church, tells us it didn't always work that way.
Mike is relying on that technicality for his outrageous dismissal of the truth. It is like the Godfather claiming he didn't force anyone, he just made them an offer they couldn't refuse. It is not coincidental that Mike believes in his Godfather's offer of salvation . . . OR ELSE eternal Hell!
Of course not. Nobody could know the circumstances, since everyone was now dead. But the fact that one of the most basic of Jewish rituals, the woman of the house lighting lighting candles to usher in the Sabbath, was being conducted in a hidden manner--under a sink instead of on the dinner table as it would normally be--is a pretty good clue.
In the Philippa Gregory historical novel, The Constant Princess, about Catherine of Aragon, one of the fictional characters is the daughter of a bookseller in London who escaped from Spain after her mother was burned at the stake for heresy. She lights the Friday night candle and puts a pitcher over it so it can't be seen by anyone passing the house. It's fiction, yes, but the truth of it lies in the fact that they had to hide their Jewishness to survive in a Catholic world at that time.
Just FYI, after the Reformation, the opposite happened in Amsterdam. The Netherlands was so anti-Catholic for a time that while Jews were welcomed in that country, Catholicism was illegal. There is a museum called Our Lord in the Attic, which was a hidden Catholic church on the top floor of a house from the time. Devout people will find a way to practice their faith, be they practitioners of Voudou in Louisiana, Jews in Spain, or Catholics in Amsterdam!
Um, yeah, the Inquisition was unquestionably Catholic. What other religion do you imagine might have been persecuting Jews on the Iberian peninsula and its countries' New World colonies at that time on such a scale?
Kindly spare me the ridiculous defense that this the History website is not a valid site, blah blah blah. I chose it as an example because it is laid out so clearly. As mensaguy has already pointed out, you will find hundreds of websites, as well as library books, if you doubt the Internet, about this period in history.
I hadn't thought about it that way. So, the Iberian conquests in the Americas were simply a part of the Inquisition. That explains a lot. The Inquisitors were on a "Mission From God," so anything goes in pursuit of the goal of converting the savages. We had somebody on here a while back that said the Inquisition was a good thing.
So Texas, California, Maine, Louisiana, and eastern Massachusetts aren't in the United States?
Your statement was "everything Catholic in the US emanates from Maryland". I showed that this is simply not accurate and you get all butt-hurt like I was personally attacking you.
Sheesh.
I'm blocking you. I don't need this. Which country owned the 13 ENGLISH Colonies, before the Revolution which CREATED the USA? Duh.
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I don't think enough of the story if known to conclude that the conversion was 'forced'. I mean, I can certainly understand that a number of Jews throughout history may have converted to other religions (and not just to Catholicism) in order to escape being persecuted as Jews. 
