Can someone explain the history of Catholicism in the United States? (Latter Day Saints, Lutherans)
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This is something I'm curious to learn about, because whenever the US and religion make it into the same sentance, the topic being discussed is almost always related to the Bible Belt/Evangelicalism. On the flip side though, I'm curious to know a detailed history of the Catholic Church in the United States, since according to statistics, it represents as high as 23% of the US population.
I was wondering if anyone here with an extensive knowledge of American religious history could give me a detailed account of this subject. You might be wondering, why am I asking this question here when I can just look it up on the internet? Not sure if anyone else can relate to this, but I almost always seem to retain and memorize information better when it is being delivered to me directly in a conversation as opposed to reading a Wikipedia page consisting of tens of thousands of words.
Last edited by Doughboy1918; 05-30-2023 at 09:01 PM..
I finished Catholic seminary, but did not get ordained as a Catholic. Grew up Catholic. Catholic schools, always, from 1st Grade onward--- until the switch in my 30s. Ordained Presbyterian (USA.)
Maryland was established particularly for Catholics. Everything Catholic-ish radiates from there. I went to school in Baltimore, along the way.
WIKI:
"...In 1650, the Puritans revolted against the proprietary government. "Protestants swept the Catholics out of the legislature ... and religious strife returned. The Puritans set up a new government prohibiting both Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism. The Puritan revolutionary government persecuted Maryland Catholics during its reign..." This went on until 1658.
It's a bit fuzzy in my mind, but by the late 1800s, Catholics, particularly Catholic immigrant communities, encountered discrimination and prejudice. Some of this was mixed with nationality: when my grandfather came over, signs were posted in many places, stating flatly: "IRISH NEED NOT APPLY." Of course, the vast majority of the Irish are Catholic. But there were also waves of Polish, Italians, Germans, Slavs, French that came. In response to the discrimination, the Catholic bishops decreed that every parish establish its own parochial school. Often there were social halls built. My own parish had all sorts, but mostly Irish. And not only was there a school, there was a "Social Center." The parish was so big, it could afford a hot lunch cafeteria for the students; bowling alleys; a swimming pool, a basketball court, a stage for performances. There were so many rooms, they were identified by the color of the paint on the walls in each one. The parking lot was our playground after lunch, through the week. Eventually, two new parishes were carved out of my own Holy Name parish. At one point in the early 1960s there were 6 or 7 priests living in the rectory. And a convent full of nuns. SOME of them were fit to be around children and teach. There were many such "Teaching Orders" of nuns created. Ours were the SSJ (Sisters of St. Joseph.)
...And what ensued was a system of parishes intended to serve particular populations. So, there were and are Irish parishes, Hispanic parishes, French parishes, Italian parishes, Polish parishes, etc. In the States, not many blacks are Catholic, so they mix-in. (I'm giving you an Easterner's version of things.)
Catholic parishes are the local presence of the worldwide Roman Church. In other parts of the world, there are smaller "Rites" which are separate, but in union with Rome: Milanese, Coptic, Maronite and some others.
On the other hand, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist and many of the other Protestant churches subscribe to the denomination with which they identify. Their church boards could vote tomorrow to dissolve the connection with the denomination. It happens frequently.
The Baltimore Catechism was a thing we were force-fed in grammar school. Its creation was in connection with the Catholic response to the general social and religious rejection which Catholics were encountering. The idea was to make sure the kids were steeped in the faith, so that we could be well-versed, in a crystalline fashion, in the church's tenets, when confronted. Strengthening Catholic identity was a big priority. Today, there is a newer, thicker "Catechism Of The Catholic Church." Sadly, this is as far as Catholic education goes for the great majority. The "magisterium" or "teaching authority" of the Catholic Church likes to assert itself, but in the States and Canada, there's not much that is taught in-depth, unless you go to a Catholic university. And maybe this is at least partly due to shrinking numbers in the pews, and people's otherwise busy lives: attending classes or reading about the faith at an adult level is last on the list of things to do. And for many, the topic simply is not of interest. It's a chicken-and-egg thing.
WIKI:
("The Baltimore Catechism) was based on Robert Bellarmine's 1614 Small Catechism. The first such catechism written for Catholics in North America, it was the standard Catholic school text in the country from 1885 to the late 1960s."
...Later:
("The Catechism of the Catholic Church) was promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992 as a reference for the development of local catechisms, directed primarily to those (in the Church) responsible for catechesis and offered as "useful reading for all other Christian faithful." It has been translated into and published in more than twenty languages worldwide..."
Catechisms are useful particularly for newbies and novices who want to be provided with basic, crystalline truth-claims asserted by the church to which they belong. The Presbyterians have them, also the Anglicans/Episcopalians. I suppose the Lutherans, too, but don't quote me.
Maybe that's enough for tonight?
Last edited by sitonmywhat; 05-31-2023 at 02:38 AM..
I finished Catholic seminary, but did not get ordained as a Catholic. Grew up Catholic. Catholic schools, always, from 1st Grade onward--- until the switch in my 30s. Ordained Presbyterian (USA.)
Maryland was established particularly for Catholics. Everything Catholic-ish radiates from there. I went to school in Baltimore, along the way.
WIKI:
"...In 1650, the Puritans revolted against the proprietary government. "Protestants swept the Catholics out of the legislature ... and religious strife returned. The Puritans set up a new government prohibiting both Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism. The Puritan revolutionary government persecuted Maryland Catholics during its reign..." This went on until 1658.
It's a bit fuzzy in my mind, but by the late 1800s, Catholics, particularly Catholic immigrant communities, encountered discrimination and prejudice. Some of this was mixed with nationality: when my grandfather came over, signs were posted in many places, stating flatly: "IRISH NEED NOT APPLY." Of course, the vast majority of the Irish are Catholic. But there were also waves of Polish, Italians, Germans, Slavs, French that came. In response to the discrimination, the Catholic bishops decreed that every parish establish its own parochial school. Often there were social halls built. My own parish had all sorts, but mostly Irish. And not only was there a school, there was a "Social Center." The parish was so big, it could afford a hot lunch cafeteria for the students; bowling alleys; a swimming pool, a basketball court, a stage for performances. There were so many rooms, they were identified by the color of the paint on the walls in each one. The parking lot was our playground after lunch, through the week. Eventually, two new parishes were carved out of my own Holy Name parish. At one point in the early 1960s there were 6 or 7 priests living in the rectory. And a convent full of nuns. SOME of them were fit to be around children and teach. There were many such "Teaching Orders" of nuns created. Ours were the SSJ (Sisters of St. Joseph.)
...And what ensued was a system of parishes intended to serve particular populations. So, there were and are Irish parishes, Hispanic parishes, French parishes, Italian parishes, Polish parishes, etc. In the States, not many blacks are Catholic, so they mix-in. (I'm giving you an Easterner's version of things.)
Catholic parishes are the local presence of the worldwide Roman Church. In other parts of the world, there are smaller "Rites" which are separate, but in union with Rome: Milanese, Coptic, Maronite and some others.
On the other hand, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist and many of the other Protestant churches subscribe to the denomination with which they identify. Their church boards could vote tomorrow to dissolve the connection with the denomination. It happens frequently.
The Baltimore Catechism was a thing we were force-fed in grammar school. Its creation was in connection with the Catholic response to the general social and religious rejection which Catholics were encountering. The idea was to make sure the kids were steeped in the faith, so that we could be well-versed, in a crystalline fashion, in the church's tenets, when confronted. Strengthening Catholic identity was a big priority. Today, there is a newer, thicker "Catechism Of The Catholic Church." Sadly, this is as far as Catholic education goes for the great majority. The "magisterium" or "teaching authority" of the Catholic Church likes to assert itself, but in the States and Canada, there's not much that is taught in-depth, unless you go to a Catholic university. And maybe this is at least partly due to shrinking numbers in the pews, and people's otherwise busy lives: attending classes or reading about the faith at an adult level is last on the list of things to do. And for many, the topic simply is not of interest. It's a chicken-and-egg thing.
WIKI:
("The Baltimore Catechism) was based on Robert Bellarmine's 1614 Small Catechism. The first such catechism written for Catholics in North America, it was the standard Catholic school text in the country from 1885 to the late 1960s."
...Later:
("The Catechism of the Catholic Church) was promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992 as a reference for the development of local catechisms, directed primarily to those (in the Church) responsible for catechesis and offered as "useful reading for all other Christian faithful." It has been translated into and published in more than twenty languages worldwide..."
Catechisms are useful particularly for newbies and novices who want to be provided with basic, crystalline truth-claims asserted by the church to which they belong. The Presbyterians have them, also the Anglicans/Episcopalians. I suppose the Lutherans, too, but don't quote me.
Maybe that's enough for tonight?
Yeah thanks a lot for that. Despite how prevelant it is in the country, do you think the reason Catholicism doesn't generally have a strong identity or recognition within American culture is because it's sort of seen as "un-American" in many ways, because of how it supposedly goes against democratic values or what not? Also, do Catholic schools in the US have uniform like in British and Japanese high schools, and are they also single-gender like most traditional Catholic schools across the world?
Last edited by Doughboy1918; 05-31-2023 at 03:38 AM..
Yeah thanks a lot for that. Despite how prevelant it is in the country, do you think the reason Catholicism doesn't generally have a strong identity or recognition within American culture is because it's sort of seen as "un-American" in many ways, because of how it supposedly goes against democratic values or what not? Also, do Catholic schools in the US have uniform like in British and Japanese high schools, and are they also single-gender like most traditional Catholic schools across the world?
Catholicism is "un-American". Catholicism and Americanism are incompatible. In fact, Americanism is an explicitly-condemned heresy. Freedom of religion, egalitarianism, and the like are rightfully condemned by the Catholic Church.
Yeah thanks a lot for that. Despite how prevelant it is in the country, do you think the reason Catholicism doesn't generally have a strong identity or recognition within American culture is because it's sort of seen as "un-American" in many ways, because of how it supposedly goes against democratic values or what not? Also, do Catholic schools in the US have uniform like in British and Japanese high schools, and are they also single-gender like most traditional Catholic schools across the world?
The Catholic Church and it's members are pretty main stream any more. Of course they were always mainstream in the places where they were a majority. But say 60 years ago and before they were kind of insular and did not mix all that much with Protestants who were a bit leary of them. That's pretty much overwith now but I'd say that the the Catholics sixty years ago and before were about like how the Latter Day Saints are now in terms of the insularity and stigma among non Mormons. But even the Latter Day Saints are getting more integrated within the culture. I think the Catholic Church is pretty much fully integrated in the USA.
As far as Uniforms. My non Catholic kid went to Catholic school during Grade School. She wore a Uniform. She looked like she was dressed up in a roll of scotch tape.
While this book is more specific to the Southern experience of Catholicism, it's definitely relevant to the OP's question regarding the history of Catholicism in America. I'm quite confident that it can be found online for cheaper than the publisher's listed price of $39.95.
This is something I'm curious to learn about, because whenever the US and religion make it into the same sentance, the topic being discussed is almost always related to the Bible Belt/Evangelicalism. On the flip side though, I'm curious to know a detailed history of the Catholic Church in the United States, since according to statistics, it represents as high as 23% of the US population.
I was wondering if anyone here with an extensive knowledge of American religious history could give me a detailed account of this subject. You might be wondering, why am I asking this question here when I can just look it up on the internet? Not sure if anyone else can relate to this, but I almost always seem to retain and memorize information better when it is being delivered to me directly in a conversation as opposed to reading a Wikipedia page consisting of tens of thousands of words.
If you broaden your sights just a bit (to the 'Americas') and not just USA, you'll get a better understanding.
Hopefully this will get you started:
The Spanish (in the 1500's) were ones who initially brought Catholicism to the Americas; centered around the Carribean - Columbus in 1492, Cortez/Mexico by 1518, and Florida by 1565.
By the 1530's the Aztec's were defeated, and with the help of O.L.Guadalupe, an estimated 8 million were converted to Catholicism in Mexico. (personally I consider this a great miracle, as the native populations were preserved and not killed-off like the Native-Americans by those in the early USA !)
...
Maryland was established particularly for Catholics. Everything Catholic-ish radiates from there. ...
Not accurate. Maryland was established as the English colony for Catholics, in the 1600s.
But Roman Catholicism entered the US from multiple areas and groups of immigrants.
The French colonies to the north were Roman Catholic.
The city of New Orleans, belonging over time to the French and Spanish, was a major port for vessels from all over the world, communicating with the vast area of Louisiana and all the parts up the Mississippi. The population of N.O. was almost 100% Roman Catholic.
A small number of Irish Catholics immigrated to the southern US - primarily the upland regions - in the 1700s and early 1800s.
A very large number of Irish Catholics came to Boston and New York during the Irish famines of the 1840s, settling in large numbers in those cities and permanently changing their character - especially in certain professions - think tavernkeepers, policemen, and the construction trades.
Just to the south of the United States was New Spain, later Mexico, which originally included the present states of California, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, and parts of other states. Mexico was and is an almost exclusive Roman Catholic population, and of course the non-indigenous and mestizo people who lived there before the region was detached from Mexico, and the people who came north, were Roman Catholics.
The vast area of the Louisiana Purchase was owned by France, then Spain, then France, before it was sold to the US. France and Spain were both Roman Catholic countries and their representatives always attempted to promote Catholic Christianity. Obviously the vast streams of Protestants who came into these areas after the Purchase overbore the Catholic population, but not completely.
In the Northeast, Portuguese fishermen were and are a very large fraction of the fishing fleet.
Very few of these Roman Catholic communities took their direction from Maryland.
The Catholic Church and it's members are pretty main stream any more. Of course they were always mainstream in the places where they were a majority. But say 60 years ago and before they were kind of insular and did not mix all that much with Protestants who were a bit leary of them. That's pretty much overwith now but I'd say that the the Catholics sixty years ago and before were about like how the Latter Day Saints are now in terms of the insularity and stigma among non Mormons. But even the Latter Day Saints are getting more integrated within the culture. I think the Catholic Church is pretty much fully integrated in the USA.
As far as Uniforms. My non Catholic kid went to Catholic school during Grade School. She wore a Uniform. She looked like she was dressed up in a roll of scotch tape.
I'm chuckling while thinking, "Awwww." As a Catholic kid, I couldn't wait to wear that "roll of scotch tape"!
Yeah thanks a lot for that. Despite how prevelant it is in the country, do you think the reason Catholicism doesn't generally have a strong identity or recognition within American culture is because it's sort of seen as "un-American" in many ways, because of how it supposedly goes against democratic values or what not?
You'd be surprised but there are areas/communities with strong Catholic social identity (as there are of other faiths) - America is not quite as 'homogeneous' when zoomed in on, thought the current civil 'rule of law' prohibits favoring any one religious identity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doughboy1918
Also, do Catholic schools in the US have uniform like in British and Japanese high schools, and are they also single-gender like most traditional Catholic schools across the world?
Yes, most Catholic (private) schools require uniforms, and most are NOT single-gender; there are a few that are. Also, it is not mandated that a child be 'Catholic' to attend, as long as they can function and not be disruptive to the 'rules' and events as they exist and there are open seats.
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