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Why can't we talk about him? I believe it is very important. I come across these people all the time, especially guys from the "National Response Squad" who I might add are packed full of "former Christians" now full blown atheists.
There attack is potent and they use the word of God against us. Paul says, we must always defend the gospel.
Giving his change of heart "air time" on this forum is not ministering the good news. IMHO If anything, it's giving those who choose not to believe more reason not to believe. As you know, there are many on this forum who profess to be atheists... and many others who come here are searching for answers.
I hope that if God puts Mr. Barker or others in my path that I will be receptive to what the Holy Spirit wants me to say to them.
Right now, he's not here.
My Pastor back in Virginia addressed this topic by saying it is possible for Christians to backslide, but is it actually backsliding or were they never trully converted. He went on to say that whenever a Christian sins, it can be considered backsliding, but if a Christian rejects and starts preaching against Christ then that Christian was most likely never saved.
My Pastor back in Virginia addressed this topic by saying it is possible for Christians to backslide, but is it actually backsliding or were they never trully converted. He went on to say that whenever a Christian sins, it can be considered backsliding, but if a Christian rejects and starts preaching against Christ then that Christian was most likely never saved.
Dan Barker, an evangelical pastor for 20 plus years is now an atheist, President of The Freedom from Religion Foundation. He is the one creating the stir with the atheist sign next to the nativity scene. Was he ever truly saved in the first place?
How did he go from the "Holy Spirit embracing Him" to Dan just totally denying the existence of God and blaspheming His name.
Dan Barker's quote, "If the God of the bible really did exist, then I will go gladly to hell"
Was he ever saved or is this falling away or backsliding? From Dan Barkers's testimony I would say, he makes the Holy Spirit look like a liar.
If Barker was born of the Spirit, then he WAS saved. However, he fell away and now Hebrews 6 would apply.
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. Heb 6:5,6
I would tend to be careful about dispersions concerning the Holy Spirit.
If Barker was born of the Spirit, then he WAS saved. However, he fell away and now Hebrews 6 would apply.
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. Heb 6:5,6
I would tend to be careful about dispersions concerning the Holy Spirit.
There are no dispersions. What is fallen away? The bible says Christians can sin for a season but totally rejecting the Holy Spirit after you claim He embraced you once. I see nothing of that in scriptures.
Was Dan Barker saved, yes or no. He can't be saved and then not saved, that contradicts what I have read.
(1 John 2:19)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-10-2008 at 11:21 AM..
I am sorry, but although it is God's will that all be saved, that is not saying that all will be saved! Saying that "He will have all men to be saved" is twisting the scriptures.
1 Tim 2:4, verbatim. I guess the Bible is "twisting scriptures"...
Marianinark, we've gone over this so many times - the Bible is full of scripture both for and against the restitution of all things (that's why the argument has life in the first place).
You state that "although it is God's will that all be saved, that is not saying that all will be saved!" - I have a fundamental argument with this position. What Christians can't wrap their (carnal) minds around is the concept that God is able to operate through the ages - thus the dispensation that scripture speaks of...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark
Over and over the scriptures speak of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do you honestly think that those who are not in the kingdom at judgement day will still be saved???
...which includes this point: Scripture tells us that murderers, fornicators and lyres will not inherit the Kingdom. What of Jacob and David, to name two?
Our sin will be dealt with - that's what scripture is speaking of.
If Barker was born of the Spirit, then he WAS saved. However, he fell away and now Hebrews 6 would apply.
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Heb 6:5,6
I would tend to be careful about dispersions concerning the Holy Spirit.
I have to admit that this is a difficult passage you gave me so I did some research Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.
According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.
This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.
Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.
The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.
According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.
The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.
Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-10-2008 at 12:08 PM..
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I have to admit that this is a difficult passage you gave me so I did some research Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.
According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.
This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.
Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.
The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.
According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.
The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.
Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.
If one tastes the goodness of God, then one is born again.
The goodness of God doesn’t come from intellectual persuasion.
It only comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is “with” a person, that would be salvation.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:10,11
I’ve encountered individuals who claim to have been born again (only God knows), and now reject Christ.
Barker would be a case in point.
Paul was not speaking hypothetically, and perhaps not from personal observation,
but as the Spirit revealed to him and in light of what Jesus said:
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Was Barker saved? Yes (only God knows his heart), but then he rejected Christ - falling totally away and unable to be restored.
In terms of predestination, God knew what Barker's ultimate path would be, and yet He played out the moment to give Barker the opportunity to make his own destiny.
Ultimately, did Barker belong with the body? No.
That was his own doing, not because Christ was not able to make him stand strong.
The Holy Spirit is offered to all, but only the elect accept. Many have simblance of being saved and even act as if they are saved, but they miss the mark, they have tasted but not eaten or drank.
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Absolutely!!
