Speaking of Denominations, a Recent Discussion I had With a JW. (Gospel, Jehovah's Witness)
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In a recent discussion I had with a Jehovah’s Witness, we were dialoguing about the translation of John 1:1. As we were dialoguing about John 1:1, she said that, I feel that in that very verse, the fact that Jesus is described as being WITH God and GOD in the same breath causes some severe problems w/ the doctrine. I don't believe the bible was meant to confuse and yet the human mind cannot grasp the concept of someone being WITH a person and that person at the same time.
Unfortunately, she, like many JWs fail to see that the Trinity doctrine does NOT teach that Jesus is the same Person as the Father. This is a typical misrepresentation by people who deny the Trinity's validity in the bible. I fully recognize the fact that the Son is NOT the Father. So, if God is triune as the Bible teaches, then Jesus (the Word) could be WITH the Father (a separate and distinct Person), but also share the same nature as the Father as God.
Look at my two sons and I. If I am both of my sons' Father, they and I are three different persons, and yet we are ALL equal in the sense that we are part of the only ONE HUMAN RACE. We are three DISTINCT persons, and yet one family unit and part of one human race. My rank may be higher than theirs only because my father status puts me in a higher rank, but their equality to me is in no way diminished because we are ALL-equally fragile, equally immortal, and equally human. I can't say that we are equally humans because that would suggest that there is another type of human race.
Another way of explaining my point is if I went to Wal-Mart WITH my two sons, it would be ridiculous to conclude that I am the same person as my two sons. But I AM the same family (One family) with distinct persons. So the same concept applies with God. The so called Godhead that you say I have become familiar with is one with 3 distinct Persons, but being only ONE God. So for anyone to assert about Jesus (the Word) being the same Person as God (the Father, in the context of John 1), is actually a failure on his or her part to grasp the true nature of the Trinity teaching.
Also, this passage has some relevance to the idea of Jesus being "begotten" or "firstborn". Since it can be Scripturally proven that the word "firstborn" can carry various meanings, then we must look to the WHOLE of Scripture to see which usage is correct in context. And John 1:1-3 plays a big part in that, for it eliminates any possibility of Jesus being created Himself. Verse 1 reads:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Okay, here we see that the Word is both WITH God, and IS God. ONLY a plurality of Persons in the Godhead can explain this. Otherwise, the verse must be twisted and re-translated like the NWT does to mean what a person wants it to mean as The Watchtower/JWs state regarding not every scholar agrees with how John1:1 should be translated.
In verse 2, we read: "The same was in the beginning with God." (A plurality of Persons again)
And now for verse 3........."All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
This verse removes any possibility that Jesus was created, for He IS the Creator and Maker of all things. And the passage even stresses that "without Him (Jesus, the Word) was not ANY THING made that was made." No way can He Himself be something that was "made".
Therefore, my understanding of "firstborn" in regards to Christ must be the correct understanding, and the Watchtower's understanding is shown to be error, especially when the JW’s own publication Aide to Bible Understanding 1969, 1971 page 584 says:
David, who was the youngest son of Jesse, was called by Jehovah the 'first-born, ' due to Jehovah's elevation of David to the PREEMINENT position in God's chosen nation and his making a covenant with David for a dynasty of kings.(Ps. 89:27) In this position David prophetically represented the Messiah.-Compare Psalm 2:2, 7 with 1 Samuel 10:1; Hebrews 1:5....At Job 18:13 the expression; first-born of death is used to denote the most deadly of diseases.
One can clearly see here that the WT's very own publication has accepted the view that first-born could have more than one meaning other than just the first born male in a family.
The JWs point that Jesus' "I Am" statement in John 8:58 was a reference to His age. I once had a JW tell me the same thing. He stated that the Jews were not asking about Jesus' PERSON, but rather, about His AGE. I asked this individual to kindly read verse 53, where the Jews asked."Whom makest thou thyself?" This was CLEARLY a matter of His Person, and not His age. The only passing reference to His age was when the Jews stated that Jesus wasn't yet 50 years old. They did NOT ask "How old are you?"....They asked "Whom makest thou thyself?"
It would have been ridiculous to ask Him his age, since Abraham had been dead far too long for any human, even a very old one, to have possibly been alive at Abraham's time. By His claiming to have known Abraham, this automatically meant to the Jews that Jesus was claiming to be divine. And when He used the "I Am" statement in verse 58 that is the reason they picked up stones to cast at Him for blasphemy. They knew EXACTLY what He was saying. The Jews didn't stone people for simply claiming to be very old.
JWs agree that Christ created all things. They believe that he was God's 'master-worker', the one by whom he brought all things into existence. So therefore, they would agree that he performed the physical act of creation. But they do not believe that he is God.
I guess this is a way to try to dance around the verses that say God created everything, and then quote verses that say Jesus created everything. You see, this is a "daunting obstacle" (to use your words) to the WT teaching.
Here are some questions to ponder. How many Creators are there? Did Jehovah actually only create one thing, namely Jesus, and then let Jesus do everything else? Did He really have a "junior-partner" in the creation of the universe? Hardly. Read Isaiah 44:12:
" Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
According to this, the LORD (Jehovah) created ALL THINGS, and He did it ALONE, and "BY MYSELF". This would eliminate the idea of creating Jesus, and then letting Jesus create everything else. And if you look back at verse 8 in this same chapter, Jehovah says there is "NO GOD beside me". So, no way was Jesus "a god" that was created, for the purpose of creating everything else. The JW's own publication All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial 1983 edition p225 says:
The Father has delivered them into 'kingdom of the Son of his love,' who is the image of the invisible God, and through whom and for whom all things have been created.
Their own publication even got it right regarding ALL things being created by Jesus.
So once again, Trinity may not be in the bible, but it can be Scripturally proven as well as the full deity of Christ. This is the ONLY viewpoint that harmonizes with all the Scriptures without having to change verses to support one's opposing view of this critical doctrine.
Another JW said that the idea that Jesus can be 'mediator' and God himself is at very significant odds. And she’s happy to have found an organization of Christians that feels the same way as she does about the matter, which is why she is proud to be a Jehovah's Witness.
Here's another question for you to ponder. Are JWs proud to be a Christian first? I hear many JWs say how proud they are to be a JW as if it's a big badge of honor to be one, when no where in Scripture does it teach that Christians are to call themselves a Jehovah's Witness, Baptist (MY RELIGION), or Catholic over Christian, if anything God would rather that we don't label ourselves since there is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, AND ONE BAPTISM.
In my opinion, you can denounce all world religions as religions of Babylon, without checking out for yourself with Jehovah’s help to see that the very religion that you are so happy to accept as Jehovah’s True Religion where people truly worship Him isn’t one ironically in that same category.
Speaking of Denominations, a Recent Discussion I had With a JW.
In a recent discussion I had with a Jehovah’s Witness, we were dialoguing about the translation of John 1:1. As we were dialoguing about John 1:1, she said that, I feel that in that very verse, the fact that Jesus is described as being WITH God and GOD in the same breath causes some severe problems w/ the doctrine. I don't believe the bible was meant to confuse and yet the human mind cannot grasp the concept of someone being WITH a person and that person at the same time.
Unfortunately, she, like many JWs fail to see that the Trinity doctrine does NOT teach that Jesus is the same Person as the Father. This is a typical misrepresentation by people who deny the Trinity's validity in the bible. I fully recognize the fact that the Son is NOT the Father. So, if God is triune as the Bible teaches, then Jesus (the Word) could be WITH the Father (a separate and distinct Person), but also share the same nature as the Father as God.
This is exactly why the Trinity theory makes NO sense! Not 1 but three...but wait! The three are 1! "What don't you understand about this?!" Jesus is god...but not the father or the holy spirit...but no wait....all three are 1! Who came up with this idea anyhow?!
Speaking of Denominations, a Recent Discussion I had With a JW.
In a recent discussion I had with a Jehovah’s Witness, we were dialoguing about the translation of John 1:1. As we were dialoguing about John 1:1, she said that, I feel that in that very verse, the fact that Jesus is described as being WITH God and GOD in the same breath causes some severe problems w/ the doctrine. I don't believe the bible was meant to confuse and yet the human mind cannot grasp the concept of someone being WITH a person and that person at the same time.
Unfortunately, she, like many JWs fail to see that the Trinity doctrine does NOT teach that Jesus is the same Person as the Father. This is a typical misrepresentation by people who deny the Trinity's validity in the bible. I fully recognize the fact that the Son is NOT the Father. So, if God is triune as the Bible teaches, then Jesus (the Word) could be WITH the Father (a separate and distinct Person), but also share the same nature as the Father as God.
This is exactly why the Trinity theory makes NO sense! Not 1 but three...but wait! The three are 1! "What don't you understand about this?!" Jesus is god...but not the father or the holy spirit...but no wait....all three are 1! Who came up with this idea anyhow?!
Take away the Trinity then God is a psyzo therefore Jdubs have to downplay the role of Jesus by taking away His deity in order to explain away the Trinity which is why they play fast and loose with translations in their NWT. Many occasions Jesus was worshiped and even allowed others to worship Him yet only God is to be worshiped so the Jdubs say, that Jesus was never worshiped nor allowed it and made it so in their book by taking away the word "worship" when it pertained to Jesus aka "Michael the arch angel"
In a recent discussion I had with a Jehovah’s Witness, we were dialoguing about the translation of John 1:1. As we were dialoguing about John 1:1, she said that, I feel that in that very verse, the fact that Jesus is described as being WITH God and GOD in the same breath causes some severe problems w/ the doctrine. I don't believe the bible was meant to confuse and yet the human mind cannot grasp the concept.............
Antredd you will be here forever and a day debating theology with a Jdub, they are well trained; better than us and they will have every answer furthermore they are instructed not to listen to you or read any literature from you. You think they are open but they aren't. Now I am not saying we don't witness to Jdubs but to go at her conscience, give her the correct gospel and plant that seed.
Antredd you will be here forever and a day debating theology with a Jdub, they are well trained; better than us and they will have every answer furthermore they are instructed not to listen to you or read any literature from you. You think they are open but they aren't. Now I am not saying we don't witness to Jdubs but to go at her conscience, give her the correct gospel and plant that seed.
Thanks man, and you are 100% right. But we have the power of the Holy Spirit on our sides, and I humbly thank God for allowing us to witness with boldness and give our individual testimonies to anyone willing to at least listen.
Take away the Trinity then God is a psyzo therefore Jdubs have to downplay the role of Jesus by taking away His deity in order to explain away the Trinity which is why they play fast and loose with translations in their NWT. Many occasions Jesus was worshiped and even allowed others to worship Him yet only God is to be worshiped so the Jdubs say, that Jesus was never worshiped nor allowed it and made it so in their book by taking away the word "worship" when it pertained to Jesus aka "Michael the arch angel"
You are again right. They substitue worship translated in every bible except the NWT for obeisance, which basically means the same thing, to bow down to a person of higher rank, authority, or position. We are to give obeisance to Jesus but not to worship him--so it's basically a play on words, and they do that quite well until you show them the original Greek word ‘proskuneo’ for worship is the same used for Jesus as use for God.
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Speaking of Denominations, a Recent Discussion I had With a JW. 
