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you are drowning and someone jumps into the water to save you but cannot do it because you thrash around and you say he is you saviour? go figure.
Everyone Jesus died for (the whole world) gets saved, He does not leave any unsaved or He is not the saviour of the whole world.
If you beleive Jesus is the saviour of the whole world as scriptures testify to, yet teach something contrary to Jesus being the saviour of the whole world are you not than walking in unbeleif?
Think and pray about it.
A man is drowning. He's offered a life preserver. He turns it away and drowns. The other man drowning next to him takes the life preserver and lives.
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Rom 3:11)
Romans 1
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. (Rom 9:16)
And He desires to have mercy on those who repent and accept Jesus as their savior. And while you're muddling around Romans 9 you may want to read the preceding verses which make it obvious that He chooses some meaning He doesn't choose all.
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If by destiny you mean "in God" then yes, we are all going back where we began.
Now perhaps you can address my point instead of just a single word. Being dismissive of my point makes it obvious that you aren't interested in an actual discussion and if that's the case be honest and say so.
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But God must purify us all by fire before that can happen.
Methinks not. Christ is my defender. I will be absolved of my sins and thus face no punishment or purification to rid me of my sin. I will be transformed.
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You said "us over God". I can't even respond.
Of course you've responded. You've blatanly lied about what I said. I'm beginning to expect no less of you however.
"It is not necessarily God punishing us, it is us deciding to choose punishment over God."
It's not uncommon for certain kinds of teachers to insert deception in their teachers though I must say that the more convincing ones are at least subtle about it.
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So it seems - but He creates evil for His divine purpose.
Yet He cannot let that evil be punished for eternity by His divine purpose. You show that you try to present your ideas as based in logic yet that logic is subject to whim. God can do some seemingly inexcusable things by divine purpose yet other seemingly excusable things He cannot because He would be a Supreme Torturer. One could argue by the logic you presented here that He's even a worse torturer under your system where not only are the evil tortured for their unrepentant sinning yet those who are repentant and under the protection of Christ are also tortured.
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Why must we think that our pets are "robots" or "puppets" after we've trained them? He is simply working in us to agree with His will - scripture is packed with God either causing man to do His will (Pharoah), abruptly changing a person's path (Saul/Paul of Tarsus) or turning a person's heart in His timing (King David).
Perhaps because in those instances He worked on those according to their anture as He foreknew. They were affected but probably in a way that was consistent with their free-will. God would not corrupt the believer would He? If so, it's improbable that He would force salvation on the unrepentant sinner. For Him to use a person for goog that He foreknows will be saved is consistent with that person's free will just as using a person for evil, hardening their hearts, when He foreknows that they won't be saved is likewise consistent with free will.
With regards to robots and puppets, there is no satisfaction of love. In teaching a child right and wrong and receiving their love, there is tremendous joy. And though I have a lot of love for my pets, they are not humans and so the comparison does not work.
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Sovereignty needs no defense, but it is a good question.
Jesus is the First Fruit of many brethren - brethren means that just as His life was laid down for many others, so shall those who come after Him lay down theirs as well. It's not popular for Christians to hear and understand, but He called for those who follow Him to do just as He did - take up their cross, and die to their flesh (their carnal nature); Jesus nature was divine, and ours is being created as the old man is burnt off.
Yet we are not Christ nor will we ever be. We will not sit at the right hand of the Father. So again, to compare ourselves to Christ in this manner is not appropriate and my original point goes unanswered.
I will forever marvel at the convoluted logic Literalists, Fundamentalists, Calvinists (especially Calvinists) will engage in to support their contradictory and untenable beliefs about God. Free will is just what it says it is . . . we have the will to choose. The nonsense that free will must mean we therefore have absolute freedom to do anything without any consequence that might influence us . . . is absurd. God has established the universe and created the LAWS that govern it and us within it. ALL the LAWS!! If we violate gravity we will suffer consequences . . . so we are influenced in our free choices not to violate gravity. So it is with ALL the LAWS! (spiritual included). But we are free to choose and free to suffer the consequences of those choices. God is responsible for the design of the universe and the LAWS that govern it . . . that is the ONLY responsibility God has for any NATURAL event happening in accord with those LAWS (natural disasters, human disasters, etc.). The absurd idea that God would CAUSE those disasters is primitive thinking we should have outgrown centuries ago.
So your claim is that God never affects the natural universe? He does not raise from the dead or stop the sun or burn a bush without consuming it or split the waters or...?
I will forever marvel at the convoluted logic Literalists, Fundamentalists, Calvinists (especially Calvinists) will engage in to support their contradictory and untenable beliefs about God. Free will is just what it says it is . . . we have the will to choose. The nonsense that free will must mean we therefore have absolute freedom to do anything without any consequence that might influence us . . . is absurd. God has established the universe and created the LAWS that govern it and us within it. ALL the LAWS!! If we violate gravity we will suffer consequences . . . so we are influenced in our free choices not to violate gravity. So it is with ALL the LAWS! (spiritual included). But we are free to choose and free to suffer the consequences of those choices. God is responsible for the design of the universe and the LAWS that govern it . . . that is the ONLY responsibility God has for any NATURAL event happening in accord with those LAWS (natural disasters, human disasters, etc.). The absurd idea that God would CAUSE those disasters is primitive thinking we should have outgrown centuries ago.
It's obvious in John 3:16-18. Keep ignoring it. Keep twisting it to fit your preconceived notions.
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I never ignore scripture Oma, and I already gave you an answer to those scriptures, but to refresh your memory here is the answer again.
Isaiah 45:22-23
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear/confess.
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.
What do we know about the tongue confessing?
That confession is made unto salvation. Ro.10:10
Who can call Jesus Christ Lord?
No man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.1Co.12:3
But it all together and what do we have.
Every mouth confessing by the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is Lord and that confession is made unto salvation.
Thus we have the restitution of all things spoken by all the holy prophet since the world began.
Now maybe you can answer the question I have asked of you nay sayer that has been left unanswered.
Tell me how those withoutthe gate the liars, idolterers,etc. can enter the city if eternal torment is true.
After the Great white throne judgment is past and all have been placed into the fire we read.
Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Who are these people who are without the gate?
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Answer: the dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars.
What does the scriptures say of these people who are without the gate?
Do they say like the churches would have us believe, to bad for you there is no more he hope for you?
Or do they say
If those who are without the gate obey His commandment they have the right to the tree of life and can ENTER in through the GATES INTO THE CITY?
Is it not plan that those dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars if obedient to the commandments of God can ENTER into the city?
Pretty much debunks the eternal torment issue doesn’t it.
But how can this be the church will say?
The answer is found in verse 17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The Spirit and the bride continue to say let him who is thirsty come and take of the water of life FREELY.
Praise God even when we give up on Him He NEVER gives up on us.
Love NEVER fails and it was because God LOVED the whole world He sent His son to die for the salvation of the whole world. And as Love NEVER fails we are assured of the final outcome, THE SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I never ignore scripture Oma, and I already gave you an answer to those scriptures, but to refresh your memory here is the answer again.
Isaiah 45:22-23
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear/confess.
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess.
What do we know about the tongue confessing?
That confession is made unto salvation. Ro.10:10
Who can call Jesus Christ Lord?
No man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.1Co.12:3
But it all together and what do we have.
Every mouth confessing by the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is Lord and that confession is made unto salvation.
Thus we have the restitution of all things spoken by all the holy prophet since the world began.
Now maybe you can answer the question I have asked of you nay sayer that has been left unanswered.
Tell me how those withoutthe gate the liars, idolterers,etc. can enter the city if eternal torment is true.
After the Great white throne judgment is past and all have been placed into the fire we read.
Revelation 22:14-17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Who are these people who are without the gate?
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Answer: the dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars.
What does the scriptures say of these people who are without the gate?
Do they say like the churches would have us believe, to bad for you there is no more he hope for you?
Or do they say
If those who are without the gate obey His commandment they have the right to the tree of life and can ENTER in through the GATES INTO THE CITY?
Is it not plan that those dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars if obedient to the commandments of God can ENTER into the city?
Pretty much debunks the eternal torment issue doesn’t it.
But how can this be the church will say?
The answer is found in verse 17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The Spirit and the bride continue to say let him who is thirsty come and take of the water of life FREELY.
Praise God even when we give up on Him He NEVER gives up on us.
Love NEVER fails and it was because God LOVED the whole world He sent His son to die for the salvation of the whole world. And as Love NEVER fails we are assured of the final outcome, THE SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD.
You're reaching with the associations and I was merely repeating my view because you said it wasn't in Scripture when it clearly was. We agree to disagree.
You're reaching with the associations and I was merely repeating my view because you said it wasn't in Scripture when it clearly was. We agree to disagree.
First thing I'll point out to you Oma was I never said anything about your view not being in scripture.
Second thing is you obviously beleive the triditions of men over the scriptures that proclaim Jesus is the saviour of all men, twisting them to say He is only the potential saviour of all.
Third things is we can agree to disagree, but I find it funny that if I am asked a question by those who beleive in eternal torment I answer it, yet as soon as I ask a question of one who beleives in eternal torment that they have no answer to they always say we will just have to agree to disagree. Now why do you suppose that is?
First thing I'll point out to you Oma was I never said anything about your view not being in scripture.
Second thing is you obviously beleive the triditions of men over the scriptures that proclaim Jesus is the saviour of all men, twisting them to say He is only the potential saviour of all.
Third things is we can agree to disagree, but I find it funny that if I am asked a question by those who beleive in eternal torment I answer it, yet as soon as I ask a question of one who beleives in eternal torment that they have no answer to they always say we will just have to agree to disagree. Now why do you suppose that is?
Because it's obvious you can't read or you choose to ignore the information presented to you?
And before you presume someone is accepting a tradition of men, you just might want to find out how they reached their beliefs. You're acting foolish to presume to know where my beliefs originated from but since you know, please share with everyone my religious upbringing and what led me to believe what I believe.
And with regards to whether you said my beliefs were Scriptural or not...
"Good luck finding that in scripture." How soon you forget. It was just a few posts back. I await your backpedal.
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