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1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. 2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural. 3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven
May our God become such a reality in our lives that the above defintion become our experience .
but doesn't the choice ultimately rest in our will- no matter the influencing factors that are in our life? what would we be if we are at the mercy of those factors. everyday i choose life (when i am paying attention) and those choices create a new reality for me, new factors. i am in total agreement with you on the mixed messages from the mainline church- we don't really know who god is- we have created idols that suit our own preferences; in our need to 'punish' ourselves for falling short of perfection, we create a god who will punish us in our stead. or worse- we drag the old covenant revelation of god into the present age and mix the two. like oil and water they don't mix.
Not sure what you mean by the ultimate choice is in our will - Being human is to be at the mercy of our carnal human nature - we are told in the NT that the natural man does not receive the things of God (1 Cor 2:14) and the flesh is at enmity with the Spirit - and that God is the potter and we, the clay, can't argue against God, also we are told that many are/will be deceived (In Revelation it says "deceives the whole world" if you are deceived you do not realise you are deceived, there is no free will in that) - then we are told that believers in "Jesus" will be "saved" then we are told that this means that believers in Jesus will be saved from "eternal torment" and that non believers will be eternally tormented. That means the majority of humanity will be eternally tormented by a God who created them without their consent.
We are told that the whole of humanity are sinners and evil and that being "a believer" makes you righteous and being a non believer means you are are wicked.
However if you look at the history of the church with the inquistions, lies, hypocricy done in the name of God, by those who were/are believers and meant to be the messengers of God it does not make a lot of sense to the natural man. If this is pointed out a christian will say ... OH but they were not "true" believers ... or we are only human.
I think a lot of the time scripture is cut and paste to support doctrine and that is where the amazing amount of denominations/theology/sects comes from. All sorts of wrong doctrine has been supported by taking things out of context and used as support e.g when Jesus was speaking to the Jews (the pharisees) in Matt 23 saying that they wouldn't escape the damnation of "hell" gehenna, I am sure that is reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and it is used to support the theory of "unbelievers" being tortured in hell.
God desires relationship with man to be experienced from a free heart- not one coerced by force or divine intervention. In. Rev.9:20,21 men who had rejected Gods love (in Jesus' sacrifice) refused to repent. They loved their own gods and it is not in Gods nature to force them to serve Him. I believe to force someone to do something they don't want to do is torture in itself.
Yeah it is forced. Ruling with fear of torment IS forcing people to "love" and "worship" you.
God desires relationship with man to be experienced from a free heart- not one coerced by force or divine intervention. In. Rev.9:20,21 men who had rejected Gods love (in Jesus' sacrifice) refused to repent. They loved their own gods and it is not in Gods nature to force them to serve Him. I believe to force someone to do something they don't want to do is torture in itself.
This is true, my relationship with Him is not out of fear, but love for Him.
Yes, the AV says "whosoever." Are you able to hear "whosoever" is a questioning pronoun unanswered and, only a possibility, indefinate unless answered in the passage, which it is not? How many whosoevers, any or none? But you say, " 'if' is not found in the original KJV..." which Bible version you in the immediately preceding labeled "incorrect" and a "folly." Actually, you are not quite right about "if" not being in the AV when the Greek occurrences of the underlying word are canvased. Here are the facts:
AV (with Strong's numbers) -- Rev 20:15 And 2532 whosoever 1536 was 2147 0 not 3756 found 2147 written 1125 in 1722 the book 976 of life 2222 was cast 906 into 1519 the lake 3041 of fire 4442.
The Greek is: ei teis and it is a pronoun.
According to Thayers Lexicon:ei is first a conditional particle, if; secondly, an interrogative particle, whether.
Authorized Transaltion (KJV) is 79 occurences.
AV (incidence of how translated) — if any man 35, if any 19, if a man 8, if any thing 6, if ought 3, whosoever 2, misc 6
(At a minimum, 73 out of 79 are translated with "if" as is also true for the controverted passage in many if not most other translations. "Whosoever" is only 2 times...versus 73 "ifs", indicating AV translator's preference.)
This is either over-medicated, or over-educated. (only kidding...) Honestly, whether you use "if" or "whosoever" the most reasonable interpretation is that some might fit. The idea that it is hypothetical just doesn't make sense if God is not a God of confusion.
So why deny it when Jesus said He would draw all men unto Him , why deny all the other scriptures that use the word All when it come to the salvation of all mankind.
If i make my bed in Hell you are there.
jn. 12:32 does not say god will draw all men unto him- the kjv translated it that way- yet in the original greek the word 'men' doesn't appear. in context jesus is speaking about all judgement of this world being placed on himself. salvation is available to all mankind because all judgement was placed on jesus at the cross.
jn. 12:32 does not say god will draw all men unto him- the kjv translated it that way- yet in the original greek the word 'men' doesn't appear. in context jesus is speaking about all judgement of this world being placed on himself. salvation is available to all mankind because all judgement was placed on jesus at the cross.
That is fine so the original greek reads like this "if i be lifted up i will draw all to me" how does this change anything.
But what you are saying by the sounds of it is the word judgement is there instead of men ?.
So correct me if i am wrong you are saying it should read "if i be lifted up i will draw all judgement to me" ?
Read the epistles it's blatantly obvious He's talking about all things which includes mankind .
That is fine so the original greek reads like this "if i be lifted up i will draw all to me" how does this change anything.
But what you are saying by the sounds of it is the word judgement is there instead of men ?.
So correct me if i am wrong you are saying it should read "if i be lifted up i will draw all judgement to me" ?
Read the epistles it's blatantly obvious He's talking about all things which includes mankind .
Doesn't really change the meaning though, does it? If all judgment (wrath) is placed on Him, where does that leave the carnal nature?
I believe that the cross is God's wrath, and is personal for each man: we are to deny our nature after we begin our walk with Him. This is harder than simply being thrown into the pit - it requires each of us to lay down and submit to the Spirit's slaying of our flesh. As He stretched forth His hands to be crucified (not resisting), we are to allow that work of grace in us as well.
Being conformed into His image as a believer now allows us to be a part of the first fruits company that will bring in the latter harvest. Big plan, big God.
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meant for the rapture thread