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How can anyone really think, or believe,the innocent ones (or any for that matter) in this story are going to go toeternal punishment in hell, or even simply vanish by annihilation, just becausethey didn’t make the altar call?
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The Creator will have none of that. The Creator makes these things happen for apurpose. The Creator will bring them allback alive one day and only then will we fully grasp the wisdom of the Creator’sdoings, why He created his Son, Jesus, why He created Satan, how He uses evil,and the “why” of our earthly joys and sufferings, our lives and deaths.
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John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can notget anything if it should not be given him out of heaven.
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Isaiah 26:12 Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter ofwelfare on the hearthstones for us, for, moreover, all our doings You docontrive for us.
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I "KNOW" this is an old thread, but I felt like revisiting it with a personal update.
I spent many decades "KNOWING" that Jesus was the Son of God.
I dedicated myself to literally thousands of hours of study, prayer, fasting.
I volunteered roughly 20,000 hours to ministries.
I gave tithes.
I went on missions trips.
I built churches.
I installed hundreds of church sound systems.
I prayed in tongues, and was slain in the spirit.
I danced before the Lord.
I believed in miracles.
I believed in angels and demons and cast some out.
I prayed for the dead.
I prayed with the lost.
I led many to Christ.
I helped the widows and children.
I helped the desolate in the name of Christ.
I was a virgin for my wife when I married at 26.
Dedication and love for God was a mainstay of my life.
I am now an ATHEIST.
It was not from being burned out, I loved much of what I did.
It was not from lack of reading the bible and hiding the word of god in my heart, on the contrary, it was because I extensively read the bible and studied it & it's origins and the origins of religion that I can no longer accept that god was more than a character(s -3) that mutated from millennia of coalesced ideas and stories.
TO BE VERY CLEAR, I am NOT saying that I think everything in the bible is false, that would be intellectually dishonest, neither I do hold to the premise that the bible MUST be ALL RIGHT, OR ALL WRONG, as many people have come to think they believe, as recommended by the RC Church. The bible is full of stories that describe some real people and places as they were known. It also has some great wisdom/philosophical ideas, some of which are still useful in present times.
I have not started living a life a debauchery, I do not kill people and sleep around, rob banks, lie, cheat, and steal. (well, no more than anyone else). I still volunteer to take care of the elderly and needy because it's what caring people do. I even attend church occasionally for my own private reasons. I have not told any christians that I am an atheist, because they can not handle it. They would change and be judgmental and condescending, I have seen it and done it. This actually entertains me a bit, because it is they, not I, that do not understand, but all the while they would believe it to be the reverse. It's funny, as long as I am in church and helping others, christians think I'm a good person, but the second they found out they were laboring beside an atheist, they unravel, trying to understand how an evil, demon-possessed, satanist (their words, not mine), could have morals and care about people as much as they do. And how could such a person infiltrate their world. Usually when they find out someone that used to be a christian waked away, they say, that the devil got to them or some other lame reason to protect their own "righteous" position and "infallible" doctrine.
I cited my list of religious commitment above simply to give a small glimpse of just how much I believed that I "KNEW" and had faith. I wept hard and repeatedly when I learned that most of humanity was going to burn forever, because I was too scared to "witness" to people and I couldn't understand why every person that actually believed, did not spend every waking minute of the rest of their lives, begging, pleading, and witnessing to the lost, in hopes of preventing such a future, for as many people as possible. I "KNEW" that I was a hypocrite for not getting over myself, and to save the eternal lives of others. This TORMENTED me for many years as a child and early teen. If anyone wants to challenge my love and commitment, I promise I can match 99.99% of christians and raise them one, just in case some self-righteous clown wants to pull the, "then you weren't reallllly saved like I am" card. I was far more saved, dedicated, and faithful them most people I ever witnessed attending church.
My journey has been long and highly dedicated. I say all of this ONLY because I have spent many hours on these forums defending religious doctrine, much of it was when I transitioned from fundamental christianity into what I learned was universalism on my way to agnosticism, and finally to atheism.
It is difficult for someone who embraces almost any form of religion to grasp the concept that atheism is NOT just another belief system that is anti-god/anti-christ. Let me say, as someone that really GETS that sentiment, that it is ENTIRELY WRONG. Atheism is not a belief system, it the absence of a belief system. Just as abstinence is not a sex position, Just as humans do not desire to mate with spiders, nada, zero, zip! Many Atheists, and they come in as many varieties as religious people, are atheists simple because they have never considered or been sufficiently exposed to religion. There are some atheists, that if they happened to be the kind of person that religion could comfort, they will turn from atheism to religion, to that comfort. HOWEVER There are also atheists that have put in the time to "KNOW" and make a genuine, quality, informed, decision. They have had an encounter with reality. So the next time you consider lumping all atheists together ask if you think all religions should be grouped together as believing the same doctrine. Most religions believe in one or more deities, all atheists reject that proof of any deities has been reasonably established.
I now live my life with so much more dedication than I ever thought possible, I cherish every moment because I don't accept that I have an unlimited number of them. I accept that all the things I did for other people was because I have a good heart. I am responsible for caring and loving people, not some phony spirit using me as a puppet, it's just me. I take more responsibility for my actions and decisions because no imaginary spirit is going to fix everything if I choose to behave poorly. I cherish my friends and my family even more, because I most certainly won't get to see them again once we die.
Do you see all the things religion has robbed people of, in the selfish hope of living in bliss forever?
Cyno, atheism seems to be a step in the journey for many of us former Christian fundamentalists. Your journey isn't over, so what you KNOW now may not be what you know tomorrow. Regardless, I hope you'll always enjoy the view from wherever you are.
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Do you see all the things religion has robbed people of, in the selfish hope of living in bliss forever?
That was a powerful and sincere witness, Cyno, but I hope you will consider the fact that it is actually RELIGION (NOT belief in God) that has been used to rob people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Cyno, atheism seems to be a step in the journey for many of us former Christian fundamentalists. Your journey isn't over, so what you KNOW now may not be what you know tomorrow. Regardless, I hope you'll always enjoy the view from wherever you are.
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Cyno, atheism seems to be a step in the journey for many of us former Christian fundamentalists. Your journey isn't over, so what you KNOW now may not be what you know tomorrow. Regardless, I hope you'll always enjoy the view from wherever you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That was a powerful and sincere witness, Cyno, but I hope you will consider the fact that it is actually RELIGION (NOT belief in God) that has been used to rob people.
Amen, Pleroo!
If you can focus for 26 minutes, and consider that if even 1/2 of this video is accurate, and still consider yourself a resolved believer, then let's talk about why.
If you can focus for 26 minutes, and consider that if even 1/2 of this video is accurate, and still consider yourself a resolved believer, then let's talk about why.
Cyno, we can agree that religion is often the bad guy here, but NOT belief in God. Religions reflect the fallible human thinking and reasoning applied to God, but God is not determined by what anyone believes ABOUT God.
...... God is not determined by what anyone believes ABOUT God.
Mystic, I respect you and have read many of your posts, so my reply does not come from the common place of reckless forum anomanimity. If God is simply a construct of the human desire for a purpose driven source, then he is exactly to each person what they believe, because he would exist only in the mind of each believer. If however, he is the Master & Creator of the universe, then by definition any belief contrary to fact is irrelevant.
Your statement asserts that God is the defecto standard, that is a belief you hold, I understand, but I no longer accept that premise and therefore do not agree that God & religion are separate. I see both as elements of the same human function.
As I perceive it, some people are wired with either a greater fear of ceasing to exist or a strong desire for there to be purpose that explains arrangements of matter into structures (organic or not). There are other people that do not require an eternal existence nor higher purpose and are willing to accept that given sufficient time and volume, most possible options will eventually occur, perhaps even ALL possible options.
Those who need purpose assume that the desire to have purpose must have the origin of said purpose giver.
If God cares enough about his supposed creation, he could provide proof instead of punishment, no revenge for not having proof never provided.
Cyno, we can agree that religion is often the bad guy here, but NOT belief in God. Religions reflect the fallible human thinking and reasoning applied to God, but God is not determined by what anyone believes ABOUT God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
Mystic, I respect you and have read many of your posts, so my reply does not come from the common place of reckless forum anomanimity. If God is simply a construct of the human desire for a purpose driven source, then he is exactly to each person what they believe, because he would exist only in the mind of each believer. If however, he is the Master & Creator of the universe, then by definition any belief contrary to fact is irrelevant.
I can often get quite philosophical and lose those with whom I am conversing and this assertion is one that tempts me to do just that, Cyno. What you call the "mind of each believer" is our consciousness and that is exactly where God exists - in consciousness. In fact, our entire reality exists in the consciousness of God (unified field). Our individual components are mere "cells" of God's consciousness in my view. The distinction "Master and Creator" is unnecessary. God is BEING and the requirements of sustaining His BEING is what establishes our reality and our individual cellular roles. There is no need for Creation or micromanaging. God just IS and that alone establishes everything else, in my view.
If you can focus for 26 minutes, and consider that if even 1/2 of this video is accurate, and still consider yourself a resolved believer, then let's talk about why.
I had some time to watch this. I find it interesting (and not really surprising) that there is such a strong connection and commonality among many of the world's religions and religious myths and that those are tied, in turn, to the zodiac and astrology, the sun and the stars. It sort of gives that passage in Romans a bit of context that I hadn't considered before: "The invisible things about God—God's eternal power and deity—have been clearly seen since the creation of the world and are understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse."
The thing is, do those myths have any relevance to "spiritual" truth? DO they relate to "God" and the human experience of God in any way? That's something worth pondering, perhaps. I'm not much of a believer in an interventionist God, so I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that the sun and the stars were arranged in such a way that they would convey a spiritual message to humanity. On the other hand... that's a fascinating possibility to consider.
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I thought as a child
Regardless, I hope you'll always enjoy the view from wherever you are.
