Them He foreknew (testimony, preach, evolve, Holy Spirit)

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

Well, that might be tough since I'm not a calvinst.





I disagree with you that "election" in Romans 9 does not have salvation in view. Yes Romans 9 is about Christ and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham of the Messiah. But that promise contained not just Christ. It contained the multiplying of his Seed as the stars of heaven. That is fulfilled in the children of the promise when they are born again if incorruptible seed.

• Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

These verses are about salvation. It's talking about who are the chidlren of God. How could that not be about salvation? It is saying a similar thing Christ said to the pharisees when He told them not to say to themselves "Abraham is our father". Yes, Abraham was their physical father and they are Abraham's physical seed. But that's nothing. The promises were never about being Abraham's physical seed. The real children of Abraham are those of Abraham's faith in Christ.



My point about "love" was to ask whether you think the commandment "love they neighbor as thyself" constitues a "work" by which one is not saved. What I get from Paul regarding not being saved by works, is that he was referring to outward works of the flesh contained in the letter of the law, as opposed to inward circumcision of the heart by which the law is fulfilled.

I agee with most of what you say - my point was not that nowhere in Romans 9-11 did it not talk about salvation but that verse 11's purpose of election was not about salvation. I don't think Paul is incorperating 'love' as a work or not a work in the passage so it is irrelevent to the argument that he is making.

What did God promise but the Messiah - if you want to be counted as the seed of that promise you better be found in Him. To be found in Him is by grace through faith - that makes you a child of God.

The commandment had nothing to do with gaining salvation so it cannot constitute a work by which one is or is not saved.

[beloved57]

Iagee with most of what you say - my point was not that nowhere in Romans 9-11 did it not talk about salvation but that verse 11's purpose of election was not about salvation.

It is too about salvation, where does it say its not about salvation ? What verse says that ?

Originally Posted by beloved57

It is too about salvation, where does it say its not about salvation ? What verse says that ?

If your going to ask questions you should try to answers other peoples questions - yet to hear a response from my questions.

God did not desire to fulfill his promise (of the messiah) to Abraham through the efforts or works of Abraham, Issac ,and Jacob. That purpose of God was according to election. v.11. not their efforts - otherwise it would have failed or not stood or taken effect. What Paul is delineating here is just as there were children of the promise under Abraham and not the world and also under Issac and not Ishmael and Jacob and not Esau likewise the children of the promise are now those under/in Christ - The Promised Seed. It was to Israrlites that pertained certain privliges not guarentees - one of them was the Messiah v.4-5. He has arrived and God has now made a further distinction w/ in the Nation - 'Behold I lay in Zion a stumbling Stone and a rock of offense, and whoever believes on him will not be put to shame.' v.33.

The Israelites thought God guaranteed thier salvation because of election (sorta like you) they were wrong and if Paul was right then God would be unrighteouse. It only afforded them a privelage - to the Jew first - see also Rom.3:1 'What advantage has the Jew...' not the guarantee of the salvation that Christ brought. If so, as I asked you before, how come all Israelites did not recieve salvation if the election of Jacob/Israel and his descendants were elected to be so seeing that God made no further distinction within the Nation? If God elected Israel for salvation why is there only a remnant at the present time of Paul's writing?

Your only answer can be is because God did not elect all of the descendants of Jacob to salvation. But it does not say that. There was no distinction with in Jacobs descendants as there was in Abram's and Isaac's. In fact the only further distinction was the Messiah - a descendant of Jacob - where the blessings/glories of the promise can be found but only through faith not birthright or the Law.

[beloved57]

If your going to ask questions you should try to answers other peoples questions

You really dont have to answer because your only going to tell a falsehood..to compile upon the one you have already told..

for the purpose of election is about salvation, the whole book or letter to romans is about salvation..

Originally Posted by beloved57

You really dont have to answer because your only going to tell a falsehood..to compile upon the one you have already told..

for the purpose of election is about salvation, the whole book or letter to romans is about salvation..

Wow, you have no answers and no comprhension - did I say there was no issues of salvation? I said the election of verse 11 did not guarantee it. You have an unteachable spirit and your responses are foolish and lack any clear deliniation from the Scriptures to back you points - you just state things and move on as if that settles it. I will not put the pearls before swine.

[beloved57]

Wow, you have no answers and no comprhension

Sure a decieved person would say that..

Originally Posted by beloved57

Sure a decieved erson would say that..

Thank you, you just proved my point - now go sell crazy somewhere else.

[beloved57]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Thank you, you just proved my point - now go sell crazy somewhere else.

Yeah scram sam..you dont understand scripture..

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

I agee with most of what you say - my point was not that nowhere in Romans 9-11 did it not talk about salvation but that verse 11's purpose of election was not about salvation.

hmmm... I read "the purpose of God" not "the purpose of election"

that the purpose of God
according to election
might stand...of Him that calleth
not of works

I believe Paul is saying the the purpose of God in general stands according to election and not according to what man wills or does. To put it another way: When God purposes something, God decides to do it for His reasons and not because of man's goodness or badness (there is none good anyway). I don't think Paul is talking about one certain purpose (e.g. the Messiah). He is talking about God's purpose in general.

Paul then lists an assortment of things God purposed as examples of what he is saying:

1. This is the word of promise: At this time Sarah will have a son
2. The elder will serve the younger (decided before they were born)
3. Younger loved, elder hated. (decided before they were born)
4. God has mercy on whom He will
5. God hardens whom He will
6. God decided to harden pharoah (before even giving him a commandment!)

I don't see that the items on this list have a particual common purpose. I think Paul is simply giving examples of God's purpose being according to election.

One of those things is "mercy" and "hardening". And it seems clear to me that these are linked to salvation later on in this chapter.

That said, I believe that the two vessels are not two subsets of humanity (otherwise I'd be a Calvinist). Rather, I believe the two vessels represent the same physical person at two different times (1) not in Christ, the seed of the devil, a child of wrath (2) in Christ, the seed of Abraham, a child of God. God chooses when, where, and how to harden the person who wants to live for the lusts of his flesh and to destroy that person. God chooses when, where, and how to have mercy and lead that person to Christ. e.g. the prodigal son experienced both of these.

What did God promise but the Messiah - if you want to be counted as the seed of that promise you better be found in Him. To be found in Him is by grace through faith - that makes you a child of God.

God promised much more to Abraham than that the Messiah would come through his physical line:
1. God promised to multiply his seed (Christ, those born of Him) as the stars of heaven
2. God promised that through his seed (Christ, those born of Him) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

While I agree that "you better be found in Him" I can't help but think that you think that is something that man ultimately accomplishes and contributes to his or her salvation, while I believe that is a purpose of God accomplished according to election.

The commandment had nothing to do with gaining salvation so it cannot constitute a work by which one is or is not saved. I don't think Paul is incorperating 'love' as a work or not a work in the passage so it is irrelevent to the argument that he is making.

Ok. That's kind of a separate issue so I'll let that go.

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

hmmm... I read "the purpose of God" not "the purpose of election"

that the purpose of God
according to election
might stand...of Him that calleth
not of works

I believe Paul is saying the the purpose of God in general stands according to election and not according to what man wills or does. To put it another way: When God purposes something, God decides to do it for His reasons and not because of man's goodness or badness (there is none good anyway). I don't think Paul is talking about one certain purpose (e.g. the Messiah). He is talking about God's purpose in general.

Paul then lists an assortment of things God purposed as examples of what he is saying:

1. This is the word of promise: At this time Sarah will have a son
2. The elder will serve the younger (decided before they were born)
3. Younger loved, elder hated. (decided before they were born)
4. God has mercy on whom He will (not due to the man's works or willing)
5. God hardens whom He will (not due to the man's works or willing)
6. God decided to harden pharoah (before even giving him a commandment!)

I don't see that the items on this list have a particual common purpose. I think Paul is simply giving examples of God's purpose being according to election rather than according to man.

One of those things is "mercy" and "hardening". And it seems clear to me that these are linked to salvation later on in this chapter.

That said, I believe that the two vessels are not two subsets of humanity (otherwise I'd be a Calvinist, yuck God ordained people to be tortured). Rather, I believe the two vessels represent the same physical person at two different times (1) not in Christ, the seed of the devil, a child of wrath (2) in Christ, the seed of Abraham, a child of God. God chooses when, where, and how to harden the person who wants to live for the lusts of his flesh and to destroy that person. God chooses when, where, and how to have mercy and lead that person to Christ. e.g. the prodigal son experienced both of these.



God promised much more to Abraham than that the Messiah would come through his physical line:
1. God promised to multiply his seed (Christ, those born of Him) as the stars of heaven
2. God promised that through his seed (Christ, those born of Him) all the families of the earth will be blessed.

While I agree that "you better be found in Him" I can't help but think that you think that is something that man ultimately accomplishes and contributes to his or her salvation, while I believe that is a purpose of God accomplished according to election.



Ok. That's kind of a separate issue so I'll let that go.

I understand that there is more than one promise (the Messiah) given to Abraham - but this is Paul's focus here. Just look at his summary/conclusion in verses 30-33. Also note his intro verses 1-5 particularly v.5. These two 'bookmarks' govern the discussion of the body of the argument. Calvinists (I know you are not one - sorry about the accusation) love to rip verse 20-24 out of thier context and use it as a pretext for their understanding of election. The reason the passage has to do with salvation is only in regard to Christ not some election for some to be saved and others to be damned.

Ask yourself these questions:

1) What was the purpose of God electing the Fathers not based on their works? The purpose of God and the purpose of election are the same. The purpose is according to election and not works so that it (the purpose) might stand.

2)What did God want to stand? Is it not the word of God v.6?

3) What was the word of God that He wanted to stand? Was it not the word of promise to Abraham regarding the Messiah. v.4-5?

4) How did the word of promise to Abraham stand? Was it not through the election of the Fathers v.7-9? He chose them not according to their worthiness hence Isaac over Ismael even though Abram wanted Ishmael to be the heir. Also, Jacob before he was even born over Esau even though Jacob and Esau were no different morally.

Does not verse 13 show us that throughout their history this favor, for the purpose of God to satnd, was shown in the love he had for Jacob and not Esau? This was not for Jacobs eternal salvation but that God favored Israel until the Messiah came. It was at that time that God required that the nation put faith Him.

As to the vessels issue: The two vessels are from the same lump - which is Israel not a person. Israel is the lump of clay God dealt with and which he overlooked their sin until the present time (Paul's Time). See Rom.3:21-31. Paul in chapter 9 quotes the OT 17 or 18 times the context of which is crucial. The clay is Israel. The vessel of honor is made up of vessels (people of faith) and the vessel of dishonor is made up of those that rejected the Messiah and those that will reject the Messiah.

Anywho there is alot of needed explanation but this format is not good for it - maybe a verse by verse study through Ch.9 would help???