What is the position of the Bible in our faith? (traditions, Gospel)
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My dear brothers and sister in Christ, in other faiths or in no faith,
In my recent thread about how much we really do believe, I was surprised to see that one commentator treated a belief in the correctness of the Bible as a prerequisite for a person to call himself a Christian. He insisted that I was not a Christian. That took me completely by surprise because my church does not place the Bible on such a high divine pedestal. I realised it was a clash of church traditions and I decided not to engage further in a debate. We do not regard people who place the Bible above the Holy Cross as non-Christians but they obviously regard us that way, which is fine. I can live with fundamentalists calling me a non-Christian. It doesn't hurt me one bit.
In my church, the Holy Cross of Christ is the most important item. This is why we have a cross on top of the church and the church is also built in a cruciform shape. This is also why the crucifer carries at the head of the procession a cross and the priest makes the sign of the cross to bless us and we cross ourselves. This is also why we are signed with the cross of Christ at our baptism.
I once went to a fundamentalist church at the invitation of a friend and I was shocked to see them carrying into the church during the procession a book. I thought it was the prayer book but my friend told me it was the Bible. But it was too small to be the Bible because Bibles used in churches are always gigantic. I used to carry one of those when I was an altar boy and you need two boys to carry one Bible. I didn't realise then but I do now that the fundamentalist treats the Bible the way we treat the Cross of our Lord.
It is for this reason that any argument on why the Bible is wrong offends the fundamentalist and causes him to accuse me of being a non-Christian.
But the Bible is full of errors. Everyone knows that. When I was still a young boy, I already knew the Bible was way off when I read the first few pages of St Matthew. It was obvious a large part of the nativity narrative is made up and not historical. I don't even have to pick the Virgin Birth story which is obviously the result of the alma-parthenos mistranslation of the Septuagint. It's easy to pick many other internally incorrect stories. By 'internal', I mean you don't even have to research on the Hebrew and Greek meaning of words and depend on what language scholars say; all you have to do is to look within the Bible itself and, as an example, you can see that the writer of St Matthew (who was probably a Hellenistic Greek Christian who knew no Hebrew) did not even understand the Hebrew Bible and adopted many OT verses and applied them as a prophecy of Christ when it was certainly not so.
Why is it important for me to raise this? I think many fundamentalists will fall away from the faith when it is shown to them (usually by atheists) that the Bible is wrong. I think this is quite unnecessary. If a Christian already knows how wrong the Bible is factually and he uses the Bible purely for teaching which is the real function of the Bible, there is no way he will fall away from the faith just because it's shown to him the obvious - that the Bible contains many mistakes and contradictions. He already knows it. The fact that fundamentalists keep calling me an atheist shows you how real the problem is. A fundamentalist's hope is in the Bible and when the Bible fails (as it surely will being but a book written by men), his faith crumbles. But our hope should be pinned on Jesus and the Holy Cross of Christ and only Christ is the rock that fails not.
Historically, sola scriptural was formulated to counter the equally erroneous position that the political body known as the Church was the source of all authority. Interestingly enough both positions cited the leading of the Holy Spirit as part of their process without the slightest shred of evidence of the participation of that Spirit IN their process. Go figure.
Some of us do move on from the wreckage after our fundamentalist faith in the Bible is rightly shattered. Some of us come to trust God again — God, not the Bible, maybe not Christianity, maybe not Jesus — although fundamentalists tell us we have no right to trust God since we no longer “believe the Bible”, and assure us we are bound for hell. So, while I agree that never having placed trust in the Bible might save some heartache, it’s not something one cannot recover from.
Last year, a classmate of mine brought a fundamentalist pastor and apologist to my room one evening unannounced. The apologist seemed very angry with me. He pointed at me and spoke to my friend, 'So, this is the one who said the Bible was wrong?' He then came up to me and pushed a large Bible to me and asked me aggressively, 'Show me where the errors are! Go on! Show me.'
I was not prepared for it and his Bible was heavy. I sat on my bed so I could rest the Bible on my lap but he told me to stand up. He said when my 'seniors and betters' were standing, so should I. I asked if he would like to sit down but the two chairs in my room had books on them. He remained standing and I had to fumble with his heavy Bible. I decided to just pick any Gospel. I knew there were many mistakes in the Bible and it would not be difficult to show him one. But I wanted one which was least offensive. My fingers flipped the pages to St Matthew 2. And I saw verse 15 and I showed it to him.
The fact is scholars say that the entire narrative of the escape to Egypt and the Slaughter of the Innocents is fictitious. St Matthew told the story of Egypt so he could apply Hosea 11:1 and say that God was addressing Jesus when he said 'Out of Egypt have I called my Son'. Matthew says it's to fulfil the prophecy when God said that sentence. Obviously, St Matthew was merely plucking anything he could find that mentioned 'Son' from God and applying it to Jesus. He's been doing that ad nauseam but this time he got it wrong because when you look at Hosea 11, God was not addressing Jesus at all. 'Out of Egypt have I called my Son' is a reference to Israel, not Jesus. How do we know that? In the verses immediately after verse 1, God complained how his Son whom he had called out of Egypt sacrificed to Baal, etc.
This is a good example to show how desperate the Evangelists were to try to trawl the OT for instances where they could squeeze Jesus into the prophecies. But Hosea 11 is not a prophecy. God was merely reminding Israel of their past. St Matthew who is particularly prone to making mistakes of this sort got it wrong and by applying Hosea 11 to Jesus, he is in fact blaspheming our Lord because Jesus never sacrificed to Baal.
The pastor didn't respond to me. He snatched the Bible out of my hands and turned to leave. He said he could only pray for God's mercy on my soul.
My other friends came to my room after he had left to ask what was the commotion all about. I told them I was just bullied by a fundamentalist pastor.
Historically, sola scriptural was formulated to counter the equally erroneous position that the political body known as the Church was the source of all authority. Interestingly enough both positions cited the leading of the Holy Spirit as part of their process without the slightest shred of evidence of the participation of that Spirit IN their process. Go figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Some of us do move on from the wreckage after our fundamentalist faith in the Bible is rightly shattered. Some of us come to trust God again — God, not the Bible, maybe not Christianity, maybe not Jesus — although fundamentalists tell us we have no right to trust God since we no longer “believe the Bible”, and assure us we are bound for hell. So, while I agree that never having placed trust in the Bible might save some heartache, it’s not something one cannot recover from.
People, good people sacrificed their lives for us to have the privilege of reading the Bible not only freely but in our own language. It's not the Bible that is a problem its how people use it. People have used it as justification to enslave others, to engage in practices that were not supported in the Bible (eg the Church during the dark ages) etc.
I'd encourage people to have the same attitude as the Bereans and carefully examine the Bible and use their power of reason to determine if what is taught at the pulpit is true. Hell? How many people read Mark 9:47,48 and believe that Jesus was teaching the crowds about hellfire. It says hell doesn't it? Yet, a simple footnote in most Bibles will indicate the original word was Gehenna. Gehenna had a different meaning for ancient Jews. It was a place where their unfaithful ancestors burned people alive in fire. Jeremiah 32:25 tells us the practice was something that God himself considered an abomination. Much different meaning to them than to the "average" Christian today.
In Luke we find the account of Lazarus and the rich man and some would say its referring to hell. However, people forget that Jesus would not teach the crowds without the use of parables (Matthew 13:35). What's a parable? fictional characters in fictional places used as a teaching point. The context further explains the teaching point as well. Jesus wasn't referring to a literal hell. It was a parable.
This might help some who grappled or are grappling with the concept of hell.
The Bible doesn't support idol worship. Whether it's the Bible or any other object that many Christians will venerate. However, for Christianity it is the Holy Book and it has proved for many to be a source of comfort and strength especially during difficult times.Worship and veneration belong solely to God but viewing the Bible with disdain is often a product of not letting scripture interpret itself but relying on interpretation of others without taking the time to meditate and do research and reading on our own.
God said`` first seek the kingdom of God , and His righteousness, and all things will be added to you `` Matthew 6:33 ...... And it also say ```` unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees , you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven`...Matthew 5:20.... , where the scribes were lawyers of the bible and the Pharisees were arrogant , and the righteousness only comes by Jesus Christ ................... See all in all if the bible is full of inconsistencies to you than this is the work of logic of unbelief and scribes legalism , where Christians would give God honor and let the minor errors pass or gives rise to unbelief of demons spirits , as it goes
Some of us do move on from the wreckage after our fundamentalist faith in the Bible is rightly shattered. Some of us come to trust God again — God, not the Bible, maybe not Christianity, maybe not Jesus — although fundamentalists tell us we have no right to trust God since we no longer “believe the Bible”, and assure us we are bound for hell. So, while I agree that never having placed trust in the Bible might save some heartache, it’s not something one cannot recover from.
LIke most everything in life, the bible is good when used in MODERATION and SENSIBLY....
tithon, Loved your story of the intrusion and challenge of the uninvited pastor.
I'm curious, since nothing is on your profile, if you are in a Theological College...if it's private,
that's ok. Is 'tithon' something from the Bible ....also non of my biz
Btw, being new here...we are limited as to how many reps we give
to one person...we must spread them around first; I understand why, but it is a shame sometimes.
Unless one has a reliable, unchanging truth standard, - one has no reliable, unchanging truth standard.
Today, it seems like personal opinion, polls, 'feelings' and almost anything else - are considered equal to inspired Scripture (the Word of God, Bible).
If one has an ever-changing truth standard, it doesn't matter what one believes. Even silly notions that Scripture contradicts itself or has been changed by men - or that some 'worship' the Bible ... are touted and accepted as truth by many under ever-changing banners like "everyone knows," "scholars believe" or "I think."
Scripture/The Bible gives believers a reliable, unchanging standard against which to test the truth of what they claim to believe about God, Christ and God's relationship with man.
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Is 'tithon' something from the Bible ....also non of my biz 
