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No. Sin has nothing to do with physical death . . . it leads to spiritual corruption. Christ had no such corruption that is why His perfect human consciousness (Spirit) connects all human consciousness (Spirits) to God and prevents eternal separation from God for us all. Our humanity governs physical death as our means to rebirth as Spirit. We must remove all corruption from our embryo Spirit either by repentance in this life or by refinement after physical death and our rebirth as Spirit. Either way, we are saved by Christ's perfection and grace through repentance . . . or we still reap what we have sown in our unrepentant individual Spirits to remove all corruption.
The wages of sin is death. That is what God's Word says.
No. Sin has nothing to do with physical death . . . it leads to spiritual corruption. Christ had no such corruption that is why His perfect human consciousness (Spirit) connects all human consciousness (Spirits) to God and prevents eternal separation from God for us all. Our humanity governs physical death as our means to rebirth as Spirit. We must remove all corruption from our embryo Spirit either by repentance in this life or by refinement after physical death and our rebirth as Spirit. Either way, we are saved by Christ's perfection and grace through repentance . . . or we still reap what we have sown in our unrepentant individual Spirits to remove all corruption.
Satan is the author of death. God allowed it, so the sinner would not live in a state of disease and misery, it is a mercy for sinners.
In the abstract that Jesus was not sacrificed, would He have been a sinner?
The abstract i am projecting is that He would not. Therefore upon Transfiguration (perfecting)... He was able to lay His life down and take it up.
Of course it is conjecture . . . that's what an answer to a "What if" question IS! The mistake you make is assuming that Jesus would not have accurately explained what He would face if the Jews accepted Him. He would not predict rejection IF they were going to accept Him!!! .
Mystic. lay off the exclamation points and read my post...
that's exactly what i'm saying.
He DID predict his death so that's what would happen.
there is plenty of FACTS that arise from the original question asked, without jumping to conjecture. here they are:
1. There would have been no cross. FACT. I Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The word of the cross is the power of God- it has the power to save.
2. Christ's prophetic words concerning his death would have been lies. FACT. We've already covered this in my last post.
3. The world would not have been united in Christ. FACT. Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. both the circumcised and the uncircumcised (Jews and Gentiles). --- again through the cross and point one tells us for a fact there was not cross.
4. Jesus would not have shed his blood. FACT. BIG PROBLEM TOO. Hebrews 9: 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
and
Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. --- we needed a better sacrifice for sins... a perfect sacrifice
and
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. This from the Lord's Supper. Again, predicting that His blood would be shed and wash away sins.
in other words...
WE'D STILL BE DEAD IN OUR SINS.Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
5. Christ's Church would not have been established. FACT. Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Again, there is a connection here to Christ NOT shedding his blood.
6. There would be no foundation for the Gospel. FACT. I Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Correct Gods ways are not mans ways, man murders, rapes, molests, so that should tell you God does not.
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Your heart sees these things as evil. But God is working Good.
On the contrary Paul my heart see them as evil because I have learned to discern between good and evil. You on the other hand are calling evil good something we are warned against doing.
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Of course Jesus wants us to love and we all will in due time.
HUH! I thought you said God gets everything He wants?
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But Good has far less significance if there was never evil. Your belief system is not rooted in God's Word pneuma. If it was then you would acknowledge His word for God says that the Creature was create subject to vanity.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
I have already acknowledged that scripture Paul, but that was AFTER Adams disobedience NOT before. Just because I do not agree with your understand of a scripture Paul does not mean I do not acknowledge the scripture.
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Pneuma, are you still going to say that God doesn't get His desire when I already showed you scriptures that say He does?
So again, does got get what He desires/pleases?
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
There is another verse (I got others as well), are you again going to tell me that I should believe you when you say that God doesn't get what He wants?
And are you going to acknowledge God does not get everything He wants in this age, but will eventually get all His desire in the ages to come. Heck you even say God does not get what he wants in this age according to love, so when will God get what He wants according to love, would that not mean in the ages to come.
And are you going to acknowledge God does not get everything He wants in this age, but will eventually get all His desire in the ages to come. Heck you even say God does not get what he wants in this age according to love, so when will God get what He wants according to love, would that not mean in the ages to come.
It is not inconsistant with a God who had created us as unique individuals to know that God grieves with us through our process, but knows absolutely that his desire for us to be one with him will be accomplished.
I do not think for a moment that God "desired" me to to many thing I have done, but I did them. God didn't plan that I would do them, although he already knew I would. But there are things that must be.
I may desire in ignorant compassion to free a struggling butterfly from it's cocoon, to "help it out". However doing so more often than not kills the butterfly, because it did not finish the natural process.
God grieves with us, he certainly would desire that we not have to go through what we do, in that sense, he does not get what he want. But in his wisdom, he knows what must be, he wants us to be one with him, so ultimatly as you have said, God does get what he desires in the long term.
Mystic. lay off the exclamation points and read my post...
that's exactly what i'm saying.
He DID predict his death so that's what would happen.
there is plenty of FACTS that arise from the original question asked, without jumping to conjecture. here they are:
1. There would have been no cross. FACT. I Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The word of the cross is the power of God- it has the power to save.
2. Christ's prophetic words concerning his death would have been lies. FACT. We've already covered this in my last post.
3. The world would not have been united in Christ. FACT. Ephesians 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. both the circumcised and the uncircumcised (Jews and Gentiles). --- again through the cross and point one tells us for a fact there was not cross.
4. Jesus would not have shed his blood. FACT. BIG PROBLEM TOO. Hebrews 9: 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.†21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
and
Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. --- we needed a better sacrifice for sins... a perfect sacrifice
and
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. This from the Lord's Supper. Again, predicting that His blood would be shed and wash away sins.
in other words...
WE'D STILL BE DEAD IN OUR SINS.Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
5. Christ's Church would not have been established. FACT. Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Again, there is a connection here to Christ NOT shedding his blood.
6. There would be no foundation for the Gospel. FACT. I Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
You clearly do not know how to deal with the subjunctive and are simply parroting rote platitudes that ignore the changes that would ensue. The cross would NOT have been necessary if Christ was not rejected . . . and He would NOT have predicted His rejection . . . the silly sacrificial thinking about blood would NOT have occurred . . . Christ would have continued teaching and correcting all the savage misunderstanding about God and sacrifice . . . and when He did die His perfect Holy Spirit would have still joined our collective human consciousness (Spirits) connecting us all to God anyway. But there is no discussing with unreasoning credulity and magical thinking . . so I bid you adieu.
You clearly do not know how to deal with the subjunctive and are simply parroting rote platitudes that ignore the changes that would ensue. The cross would NOT have been necessary if Christ was not rejected . . . and He would NOT have predicted His rejection . . . the silly sacrificial thinking about blood would NOT have occurred . . . Christ would have continued teaching and correcting all the savage misunderstanding about God and sacrifice . . . and when He did die His perfect Holy Spirit would have still joined our collective human consciousness (Spirits) connecting us all to God anyway. But there is no discussing with unreasoning credulity and magical thinking . . so I bid you adieu.
you clearly don't understand that i did not write the bible.
but I know what it says. I COMPLETELY understand the changes that would ensue. I also have a firm grasp of what changes would have to be made for the jews to accept Christ and it not invalidate all the OT prophecies that say they would not.
IF the jews had accepted Christ... all the OLD testament prophecies stating they would NOT accept him, would be wrong as well. It was foretold.
i get the overall impression that you believe that you could have improved on the overall plan for humanity.
And since i'm being so silly... So very silly... so very unbelievable silly... IF Christ doesn't die on the cross, How am I, as a Gentile, supposed to be reconciled to God? (this is a question worth asking, in light of the subject matter, but it is an IF question, so you'll forgive me IF i ask for a little consideration here) I am not a Jew.
I'm a silly Gentile.
man, i hope you respond, but you probably won't.
IF Christ doesn't die on the cross, How am I, as a Gentile, supposed to be reconciled to God? (this is a question worth asking, in light of the subject matter, but it is an IF question, so you'll forgive me IF i ask for a little consideration here) I am not a Jew.
I'm a silly Gentile.
man, i hope you respond, but you probably won't.
Ok . . . one more time. All the barbarity of the Cross was due to our savagery and sinful nature . . . not a requirement of God to pay for anything. It was an unavoidable consequence of our sinful (primitive carnality and savagery), period. ANYONE who had brought the same message of a loving God would have been treated the same during that era. If we had been different . . . the prophecies would have been different . . . but we were not. It was our barbaric sinfulness that caused the scourging and crucifixion in response to the truth about God's nature revealed and taught by Christ.
God knew and revealed to prophets what we would do. Jesus knew and wished that God would prevent it . . . but that would invalidate the message of a loving God and confirm the primitive belief in a vengeful smiting God. THAT is why it was a sacrifice . . . it was a self-sacrifice in love for us all by Christ that revealed BOTH . . . that He did indeed possess the perfect love of God and that He had God's Holy Spirit in His human consciousness. Upon His death . . . He was reborn as Spirit and His Holy Spirit became part of the collective human consciousness and is available to ALL of us in our consciousness . . . Jew, Gentile, or whatever! Our entire species was reconciled to God by His self-sacrifice at our barbaric hands because we "knew not what we did."
Last edited by MysticPhD; 12-01-2011 at 04:52 PM..
Ok . . . one more time. All the barbarity of the Cross was due to our savagery and sinful nature . . . not a requirement of God to pay for anything. It was an unavoidable consequence of our sinful (primitive carnality and savagery), period. ANYONE who had brought the same message of a loving God would have been treated the same during that era. If we had been different . . . the prophecies would have been different . . . but we were not. It was our barbaric sinfulness that caused the scourging and crucifixion in response to the truth about God's nature revealed and taught by Christ.
God knew and revealed to prophets what we would do. Jesus knew and wished that God would prevent it . . . but that would invalidate the message of a loving God and confirm the primitive belief in a vengeful smiting God. THAT is why it was a sacrifice . . . it was a self-sacrifice in love for us all by Christ that revealed BOTH . . . that He did indeed possess the perfect love of God and that He had God's Holy Spirit in His human consciousness. Upon His death . . . He was reborn as Spirit and His Holy Spirit became part of the collective human consciousness and is availabel to ALL of us in our consciousness . . . Jew, Gentile, or whatever! Our entire species was reconciled to God by His self-sacrifice at our barbaric hands because we "knew not what we did."
Shalom Mystic...the classification term "species" has no genetic classification value. Roughly 20.000 syngameons (not species) of animals were on Noah’s Ark. The changes in allele frequencies among the syngameons (including the eight humans on the Ark) took place after the flood. OK...back to our barbaric hands.
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