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If you go to any university this is a big topic usually, so it's not as easily dismissed as you think it is, I wish I had my notes on this still. I mean I agree with you, but I'm just saying it's not that simple I guess.
if virgin birth were essential to Christian followers, then why did Paul (undeniably a Christian, as I'm sure you will agree) refer to Jesus as born of a woman.
Why, that's easy enough to understand....so easy that I think all the explanation needed is to read that tiny little phrase in context:
3So we [Jewish Christians] also, when we were minors, were kept like slaves under [the rules of the Hebrew ritual and subject to] the elementary teachings of a system of external observations and regulations.
4But when the proper time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born subject to [the regulations of] the Law, 5To purchase the freedom of (to ransom, to redeem, to [a]atone for) those who were subject to the Law, that we might be adopted and have sonship conferred upon us [and be recognized as God's sons].
Last edited by Luvvarkansas; 08-13-2009 at 01:32 PM..
Our church teaches that Jesus was conceived in a virgin.
In their study of the Greek texts, they note that Joseph slept with Mary after she was known to have been pregnant.
Also the inconsistencies of word usage about the birth itself, lends our church to conclude that the conception was virgin. Though the birth appears to have not been virgin.
In their study of the Greek texts, they note that Joseph slept with Mary after she was known to have been pregnant.
Um, what "Greek texts" were they using?
24Then Joseph, being aroused from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him: he took [her to his side as] his wife. 25But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus.
24Then Joseph, being aroused from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him: he took [her to his side as] his wife. 25But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Correct, Joseph did not have sex with Mary till AFTER Jesus was born.
Paul, thank you for taking my position seriously and attempting to have an intelligent discourse about the virgin doctrine. I find your recent post compelling if not yet completely convincing. I am continuing my study. In the meantime, may I suggest that you also take the time to read some opposition opinion, not so that you will be convinced, but so that you will better understand those who share my opinion that the virgin doctrine is controversial. Gordon Wenham, who was Professor of OT Studies at the University of Gloucestershire until 2005, would be a great place to start.
As for the rest of you, who would revoke my Christian identity, frankly, you disappoint me. It is my most fervent prayer that the Christian community will stop this nonsense of barring the door against anybody who dissents.
A post on another thread debated that Jesus was born of a virgin and that the Greek Word parthenos only refers to a young "marriageable" woman and does not refer to a "virgin". So this is a thread to debate the meaning of parthenos.
What say you?
Paul
I haven't the time to read through the whole thread to find out whether or not anyone has mentioned this ... Should't we take into account the ancient hebrew culture and traditions in regard what a young marriagable woman entails? If she was young and had never consummated a marriage (i.e was marriagable) that pretty much means she had never had sex. In hebrew tradition a deflowered bride was not desireable if you catch my drift.
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